What makes jujitsu effective

Discussion in 'Ju Jitsu' started by Katsu, Sep 29, 2012.

  1. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Valued Member

    Ha, agreed that Pat's grappling didn't really exist then... standup or on the ground! In terms of sprawling, to me it's both. Back (particularly with the hips, to move them out of range), and down to sink your weight. Sometimes onto one knee, sometimes not, depending on a range of factors.
     
  2. Gripfighter

    Gripfighter Sub Seeker

    this sounds like your standard anti grappling BS to me. You can counter a sprawl by reaching up and pulling the guy into you at the buttocks if your strong enough, going on one knee before the sprawl has been put down would make this much easier, although its far more likely you'll just be single legged.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2012
  3. Oddsbodskins

    Oddsbodskins Troll hunter 2nd Class

    Always favoured Opium myself, with a little time at Candles bar and the Banshee Labyrinth :)
     
  4. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Dude, how did you KNOW?! Opium is my favourite bar!
     
  5. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Valued Member

    No, it's really not that different to a 'standard' MMA sprawl, just not as extended, and more centered in lowering the hips. As far as it being "anti-grappling BS", I'll just point out that it's based in principles of defending against throws of all levels from many centuries of use... so if you're going to refer to that as "anti-grappling BS", when you're dealing with one of the most grappling-heavy martial cultures around, well... okay. And no, a single leg (when we do this) isn't really that easy... for a few reasons.
     
  6. Oddsbodskins

    Oddsbodskins Troll hunter 2nd Class

    Then you've probably gotten drunk around most of my mates on several occasions :D
     
  7. Gripfighter

    Gripfighter Sub Seeker

    Im not even sure what this means, how is a sprawl, call it a wrestling sprawl if you want but a sprawl is a sprawl to me and there's only one way to do it, how do you make a "wrestling sprawl" less extended, why would you want to ? what benefits does this have ? centering the hips all sounds very anti grappling to me.

    elaborate what do you mean by all levels, what does how old they are have to do with anything, this is went from sounding anti grappling BS to mystical advanced techniques BS.

    Such as ? you have your legs as far away from my arms as possible your pushing your weight down ontop of me to stop the momentum of my drive making me face downwards and in the middle of this your going to get down on one knee, which will bring your hips forward totally yielding any force you had stopping the momentum of my shoot and giving up a leg to someone already facing downwards in the process, your going to be single legged. You sound like someone who has observed a sprawl but doesn't really understand its purpose or the body mechanics involved, pretty much a text book description of anti-grappling.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2012
  8. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    We need a martial arts pub crawl, me in a gi, you in those cool Rapid Arnis trousers, and Zaad.... In a singlet.
     
  9. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    only time I take my hips off the floor is when I have an underhook/good position.
     
  10. Gripfighter

    Gripfighter Sub Seeker

    don't you need someone to wear the vale tudo shorts ?
     
  11. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    Fine but odd has to wear a febcing guard. You have to wear MMA gloves and I get to wear wrestling shoes
     
  12. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Definitely! This needs to be done. Person who show up last has to wear all the TapouT gear.
     
  13. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Valued Member

    No, sprawling is a concept, and there are different ways of doing it. They're all very similar, but there are differences. For instance, some teach that the legs go back straight, and the hips are raised to allow you to drop your weight (via your chest) down on the shoulders of the attacker to stop their movement, but others use more of a redirecting approach, and so on.

    In terms of why I would make it less extended, well, simply because I want to be able to move on in any direction, and the standard one doesn't necessarily allow that (with the weight forward movement sideways or back isn't possible). When I talk about the action being centered on the hips moving back, that's exactly what I mean... everything we do comes from the hips, so to have them too high is to have us off-balance. I will say you appear to have missed the last couple of words there, though... it's not "centering the hips", it's more "the action is focused on moving the hips", or "the hips are the central concept to the action".

    I mean throws from standing, dropping takedowns (such as double and single legs), through to complete drops as sacrifice throws. There's nothing mystical about this at all, all I'm saying is that we train from the perspective of people throwing or taking us down as a major aspect, and the systems we have that deal with that have been doing it a lot longer than BJJ or MMA have...

    Such as the position of the leg, where the weight is pressuring the opponent, where my other leg is, what else I've done as they're coming in, the timing of the drop, and so on. And yeah, this is anti-grappling... you didn't think that grappling was an all-beating approach, did you? There are things you can do against it, you realize...
     
  14. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    Sprawl:
    Chest goes down - drives shoot down instea of forward.
    Legs kick out - releases grips on legs to prevent driving a shoot.
    Over and underhook/hard and arm trap - prevents hem body locking or moving once grounded.

    Can't do anything like knees without danger of them catching or punch the back of the head.

    If a shoot is horizontal ( their back) rather than vertical it makes the sprawl easier.

    If the shoot is not a shoot but a tackle (high on the body, horizontal back and around the waist) then its easier to counter.
    Just take an under over, step one foot back and round, rotate with the tackle and drive them round, land in neck crank. Call ambulance, send friend to hospital Again
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2012
  15. Gripfighter

    Gripfighter Sub Seeker

    what do throws and sacrifices have to do with sprawling they require a different type of defence.

    I guarantee the systems you have haven't been doing it as long as wrestling though which is where I learned to sprawl not BJJ or MMA, MMA is a sport not a style by the way, it has no set curriculum.

    all beating approach to what ? what are the things you can do against it that don't involve grappling your self ?
     
  16. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    To be slightly disrespectful -you do ninjutsu.

    Wrestling is where the sprawl in MMA comes from and wrestling has been dealing with shoot and grappling longer than any art ON THE PLANET.

    Put a catch wrestler against a ninja in a grappling environment and I know where my money is. But I guess that a different conversation
    Basically that's bum talk
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2012
  17. Oddsbodskins

    Oddsbodskins Troll hunter 2nd Class

    Haha! Sorted, I'll let you guys know next time I'm home.
     
  18. Jumonkan

    Jumonkan Valued Member

    BJJ

    I'm sorry I didn't mean for my reference to the MMA sports to cause a flame war. I'll select my words better from now on. On the subject of Bjj being Judo.

    I teach Japanese and American Jujutsu and I'm currently learning a verision of Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu called Hakuho Ryu Aikibudo as well as Ono-Ha Itto Ryu Kenjutsu Sokakuden. I've trained Judo, BJJ and I few of my current students are training GJJ at the moment with a Sandan.

    Besides a few things (not hooking with the legs with your legs in mount, not hooking you feet around the torse when you have back mount etc.) I haven't seen too many things in Bjj or Gjj that I either don't know my self or haven't seen or experienced in Judo ne waza before. Judo today its more like 90/10 split with to much time spent on throwing, which is why Bjj/Gjj usually beat Judoka, there just better at Ne waza because they do it more and thus really know how to control there oppoents on the gorund.

    I encouraged my students to seek out Bjj/Gjj because I teach a limited modern ne waza skill set, because frankly I don't like wrestling. They get enough ne waza to keep them safe against someone who may know Jujutsu regradless of which form it is but they wouldn't be winning contests anytime soon, though some have. :hat:

    I still stand by what I have said find something YOU like and do that. Style really just comes down to what the founder believed was the best way to apply sets of principles and at times some cultural cues. You find all jujutsu systems regradless of all other things share the major techniques, principles and machanics amoung them, Judo included.

    James
     
  19. Katsu

    Katsu Banned Banned


    I'm not sure but I think the Bujinkan has a very old jujitsu ryu in it (Hontai Yoshin Takagi-ryu) 1645 or there abouts so when Charles 2nd was on the throne before of after Charles the 1st had is head cut off by Cromwell and the puritans i'm not sure. But long enough ago for it to be a battle proven fighting art
     
  20. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    Ancient Greece, India, Persia, Africa and America had wrestling long before 1645
     

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