What I've figured out recently

I like that...can definitely apply it.

Langenschwert - I've had to read and re-read your posts because of the depth of meaning and application in them (that's a very good thing). Still processing a lot of it at the moment

Stolenbjorn - nice discourse there about the two styles. Does the 'italian' style fit in with your nature/style? That's been an issue for me with certain weapons and weapon systems. The original cultural/historical/societal context of a weapon, how it evolved and its modern application sometimes spin me out if I think about it too much. Though it all melts away when I've got my weapon in hand.

 

Lily, keep in mind that the German and Italian systems are closely related. Fiore dei Liberi studied with German masters, actually. The stances/guards are very similar (and similar to those in kenjutsu as well). What you (assuming you're doing JSA) call Jodan and Hasso we call Vom Tag (literally, from the roof), Chudan is like Posta Breve in Italian, which is analagous to German Pflug (the plow). Waki Gamae is like the Italian "Posta Coda Longa", and so on. I don't think the two (German and Italian) systems are really that far apart, really. One thing the Germans like is downward strikes with the false (back) edge. There aren't too many in the Italian tradition. Germans also like the zwerchau, a "helicopter rotor" style cut, used to break Vom Tag. I'm not aware if they use those cuts in the Italian tradition or not.

Best regards,

-Mark

 

I agree with Langenschwerts last post. Some say that Fiore could be regarded as a "quick guide to german longsword", the only area that I know is regarded as a potential difference in the systems, is what we've mentioned here (some regard fiore doing things two steps (coverta -strike, coverta -thrust or coverta-grapple), whereas the germans seems to do the meisterhaus. But I know of one german technique where you seem to do a coverta, and that's the meisterhau where you parry a zornhau, and then thrusts/cuts the opponent in the face with the false edge, allmost from finestra (sorry, don't remember the german name for "window guard"). When you close the line, you do what acording to Fiores manual is a "coverta", so that's how close the manuals are. There's one other area where Fiore seem to differ, and that's i the winding of the swords in window-guards. Fiore seems to say ***that; just grab the opponents bladetip and smithe him! (Others speculate that Fiore asumes that you grasp the finer details of window-guard-sparring on your own).

Matt Easton held a little lecture on the Fiore manual(s) in one of his sword-sessions in Sweeden this autumn, and I liked his theory on Fiore; that he was fighting for Milan during most of his adult life as a master, and that Fiore -as part of a peace-agreement between the marqi of Milan and the marqi of Ferrara, were ordered to write his manual to the latter. The manual seems to be a to-the-core manual for advanced-learners; still it's a very systematic system simple to grasp. Fiore actually states in the intro to his manual that he knows several more techniques, but the ones he shows are the ones that works most often. That means that fiore might allso be doing some or all of the stuff that the more detailed german manuals teach, that Fiore leaves out.

Just a little comment: acordig to my austrian friend, "von tag" means "from the day" (ie. sun) rather than "from the roof". It's only semantics, but if I know you guys right, you'd like to have the details right

Guten tag zu ihren alles; chuss!

 

It is because von Tag is medieval German and not modern HIgh German. its also been spelt von Dage and von Tage among some other variations.

And I think the alles is redunant because ihren means you(plural) or as my H.S. Teacher said "y'all"

Tchuss

 

Some may find this interesting:

http://www.chivalrybookshelf.com/titles/DVDs/Dembach/DVD_ochs1.html

I've yet to see the DVD, but I've heard that it's excellent, so I've ordered it. For those wanting to see what German Longsword is all about, it might be a nice primer.

For those wanting to know what the heck all our guards and strikes look like, take a gander here:

http://www.thearma.org/essays/StancesIntro.htm

http://www.thearma.org/essays/mastercuts.html

And, a basic intro to WMA: http://www.thearma.org/HEMA.htm

Best regards,

-Mark

 

What an invigorating thread I have never seen a thread that was held so nicely between everyone...I have never done western martial arts but from what you guys write they sound very usefull ... I never really have been exposed to them they seem similar to japanese sword fighting though i know little about that style aswell I am a chinese sword fighter and all these hard big movements seem very new to me but they also seem to have been written about with such care I thought that kind of philosophy was only with the chinese martial arts and that's kinda why I went towards them.. you guys should have more in the WMA section I would be horribly interested to learn more
Stay safe

 

Main thing I've learnt when reading various things about assassins is how their style of combat worked. Often they used a knife or two... as soon as your opponent attacks there will always be one opening you can exploit. No matter what someone does if you are quick any time they move they are giving you another attack line toward them, its just a matter of finding it.

 

Exactly. The more your opponent protects one opening, another is left more open. Hence the key notion in German Longsword of attacking first, forcing your opponent to react to you, rather than the other way around. If you're lucky, he'll overreact out of reflex, and you've got him. If he uses a measured response, then you've got a real fight on your hands, and you'll have a much harder time finding an opening.

@ Nylen: The WMA community is generally pretty open and accomodating. There are very few masters, so a lot of our training involves research into historical manuals. Everybody needs help figuring this stuff now and again, so we end up communicating and helping one another out quite a bit.

Best regards,

-Mark

 

well that's just the best thing I have ever heard that should be posted everywhere cause in chinese martial arts everyone thinks there way is the best ....and that their lineage is the best....so on that note anyone know of any WMA in B.C

 

You're in luck: You're lucky enough to have the Academie Duello in BC. They focus mainly on Rapier. I can't comment on their instruction, but I've heard they're very good. I've been on a little hiatus from rapier, but learning longsword makes you a better rapier fighter and vice-versa. I've met one of their students, but I can't remember her name, and know another online, sorta. Even if they're not close to you geographically, they might be able to point you in the direction of someone who is.

Best regards,

-Mark

 

AT LAST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :love:
I've had up to several lightbulbs going off last weekend, when we had a WMA-seminar in my town. I'll share one of them with you: Up untill this summer, I've been allmost exclusively been doing Fiore (4 years), and stayed away from the German, to avoid getting an overload of thecniques. The past autumn, I've been doing German longsword for the sake of other fellow students, wanting to do German rather than Fiore. Last weekend a Sweede showed us some German techniques and that's when it happened:

In Fiore, there's been one technique that I really haven't made work. No matter how we tried to do it, it allways ended up with a failure. (It's a technique, where you're in crossada, and the active steps sideways, strikes the left arm of the passive, then thrusts him in the guts/face.) The Sweede showed us how you (in German longsword) after a crossada where you end up on the line, tries to strike. When the defender puts his sword sideways to avoid a face-hit, you do a "flat ochs", going around his sword, hitting him in the face anyway. If he goes even further out, you close and grapple him.

It was when we did this technique I suddenly realized that the Italian technique that I described first works perfectly! Fiore was taught longsword by German masters, and it's logical that some of his techniques are meant for people fighting other systems than he recomends himself. The reason why this technique doesn't work against an Italian, because he doesn't recomend you going around the opponents sword, so the oppertunety to do the arm-slash+gut-thrust never occurs :bang:

Conclution: Doing a bit of both (both german and italian) is mutually advantageous; certainly if you do Fiore, but probably allso if you primarily do German. (I don't intend to start a "is going around the point smart or stupid"-thread; IMHO it all depends on the practitioner.)

 

And where the point is relative to you when you move.

What was the German technique called, BTW?

-Mark

 

-I'm gonna ask the german dudes