I'd just like to add that piratebrido's picture is a veritable maelstrom of light and shade is both unapologetically visceral and apocalyptically apoplectic. While some will, no doubt, shudder at anything so fraught with anachronistic immediacy and chillingly archaic post-modernity, and others simply stand frozen in wonder, I am forced, nay compelled, to conclude that the artist, in this lone snapshot, somehow underpins the fragility and morose quaintness of those most Kafkaesque yearnings of our time - those of the stranded and besmirched proletariat. I also detect a cascade of roses with just a hint of burnt rubber on the nose. I'm completely speechless.
I'm not sure what you're on about really. His limbs are closing in on eachother. Not opening away from eachother such as slant flying. Substantial means full or fixed as i understand it. I can understand you can apply the terminology of yin to the arm moving toward you and yang to the hand moving away from you. Chris said on the first page that what he is showing are two forces converging on eachother. neither can be described as fixed (not able to move) Also from what i've been shown in person of these applications one arm/hand is not fixed (cannot move) I will have my own opinions thanks jk. I'm putting my pov of view across. That you see my discussing things I have a different perspective on as arguing is not really my problem. What people see in clips is usually from their own experience and perspective which is completely undersandable. I have felt these applications done on me and been taught them from this line. So maybe you can respect that I can disagree when someone is describing them from another perspective that may differ from my experience .. But of course you will argue against those describing what they are doing/ showing. And think what you like about everything . Sadly MAP has no art critique forum so your repeated posts about pirates considerable artistic talent seem rather misplaced. Unless you have some mysterious point you are alluding to but keeping a big secret.
I liked my picture too. Even taking the concept of opposites - the yin and yang - beyond to physical to the emotional, with the glum and the glee. That's how Tai Chi I am. However I liked Middleways youtube vid he posted. Plus I totally robbed the idea of heavy elbow from him, which I have had quite a bit of success with. I think what he posts is worth a think in the least.
*scratches head* Sorry but I cannot make heads or tails of where this thread went So um what is being discussed?
Very funny. Now then I've been thinking about this today and I am a bit curious as to why no Taiji linked form that I'm aware of includes a ji where the hands travel towards each other to express the technique. They always converge and then move together away from the body - the rear hand supporting the front hand. The only place I could think of that came close is the seven star punch after snake creeps down - but there the rear hand drills over or under the entwining hand to execute a shearing rather than a pincer effect, (a bit like in my last picture). This is important as neither hand is then impeded by the other. Also, crucially, here the left hand (if done exactly as in the linked form) follows the body's turn throughout - i.e. when you turn right, your hand moves right, when you turn left, your hand moves left. It does NOT perform the contradictory movement of moving left while you turn right and then right while you turn left which is expressed by the pincer ji. I'm sure Chris can do it. I'm sure it does hurt. But if my niece did it on you, you'd laugh in her face. Now if she used the rear hand to support the lead forearm in executing a sawing or drilling throat strike, you wouldn't be laughing. Just a thought.
Watch how he does it at about 1.17 mins [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaYrNNkeyq8&mode=related&search="]An Interview with Ma Yueh Liang - YouTube[/ame] I've seen him do it like this a in his fast forms always the same in more than one clip. It makes the subsequent moving forward bit look like a transition almost.. You have to ask,, why he would do the coming together bit fast and the moving forward bit slow.. I think there is also a good expression of ji (squeezing) in his shoulder press.. It's similar to clapping your hands together to strike, any throat /neck strike like this wouldn't be that funny. Worth remebering this is just one way to apply ji. Other ways are good too.. Both hands have to travel to reach there in this type of application. There is no reason that if your niece was taught to do this properly by the right teachers she couldn't use it very well to attack a vulnerable area such as the neck. If one hand strikes toward one side of the neck and one across the jaw line from the other side.. could be fairly unpleasant.
here is a little diagram i have knocked together to make clear the force directions and how triangulation is used. Also i have included some application variations not similar to the form press. cheers Chris
nice diagrams!! Cheers Chris, i think I got myself mixed up along the way.. Those make it clearer. Looking forward to a refresher Sunday. Regards
cheers mate, No i dont think you got mixed up .. have been enjoying your responces! see you sunday! Chris
Well firstly, Ma Yueh Liang is a Wu stylist. Wu style is not the same as Yang style and they shouldn't be mixed for reasons made only too clear by Yang Banhou. Secondly, I can't take seriously anyone who does empty force demos (which have been posted before here on MAP when he does push hands) - it discredits everything else he does. Thirdly, the pictures show a variety of things. I agree that picture one is incorrect and two is corrrect - that is what I've been saying. But I also believe that Chris clearly uses picture 1 type force in techniques 1, 2 and 4 on his clip. The muscles of his embracing arm contract as his body turns towards and gets closer to it to apply pincer applications. The hand in picture three is incorrect, as it relies on biceps contraction again, if I'm reading the picture correctly, that is with the torso turning to face the right. I don't understand picture four. Pictures five and six, like picture two, I can't really see any problems with, assuming I'm reading them correctly. I would really need to know how the body is turning around its vertical axis. But it seriously doesn't matter what I think because I consider at least half of what is done in the name of Taijiquan to be incorrect. We're reading from different rule books. I obey the principles described in the classics in conjunction with a basic grasp of anatomy, deny the existence of internal energies, qi and the dantian as anything other than a metaphor. This means that I think in terms of maximising momentum, minimising muscular contraction and eliminating contradictory movements. I have checked my stuff out with others who agree with me entirely, but they also acknowledge that some techniques that are used in the name of Taijiquan are less than ideal. We react to such things differently. They leave them in for authenticity, I throw them out because I don't want to teach anything that is not effective for everyone, and I don't believe in training anything other than ideal movement. We'd really need to meet though for me to show you what I do and don't use and why. Maybe that will happen one day. Even then, it wouldn't mean we'd necessarily agree with each other.
The are many useful techniques that are not effective against all opponents. Short people will not use some techs agains tall people and vice versa do you eliminated them? Also what is ideal movement? And when do you get ideal movement in battle? I think you are pushing this puritanical streak a bit too far in your training. Also you cannot avoid muscle contraction! You just transfer power from the larger muscle groups your centre instead of developing the large arm muscles. The Bear.
Joanna, picture two is how the force applied in all applications of Ji that i have learnt. What you 'think' you see in the clip IS different from the reality. there is absolutely no contraction of the bicep in this application. You must be reading the picture incorrectly. This is extension of stance and triangulation of force down. a similar application can be seen in the following clip [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spjpaueebEw"]YouTube[/ame] if you pause it a 23 seconds you will see the idea. These employ small rotation power in the spine, this more often than not will occure over millimetres of travel rather than large rotation. i agree. We might meet someday and can discuss and demonstrate each others ideas. To say something is incorrect without a grasp of the mechanics involved first hand is not a stance i personally like to take. reagards Chris
Hi all, I forgot to mention that I don't personally agree with the arrow direction in the front leg, either. I would point the arrow down into the ground to indicate sinking through the leg to deepen the root rathe than any form of pushing up into the body with the muscles of that leg. Regarding the puritanical streak - here too, we'd need to meet. I'm aware that some techniques suit different shapes and sizes and that muscle contraction is necessary to remain standing, but I also train to eradicate all unnecessary muscle contraction through ideal alignment and maximum possible reliance on momentum, as this produces the fastest and most powerful strikes, in my experience. And as was perhaps hinted at in your Form Bloat thread, Polar Bear, maybe we can afford to lose a few techniques. I've watched the clip by the way, Chris, but I interpret the movement (paused at 23 seconds) very differently and in such an instance, I think the weight being on the front leg is "incorrect" - it should have travelled on to the back leg as he turned right. So there I'd flip your rear leg arrow up the other way so the weight could sink through the rear leg. It really shouldn't bother everyone so much what I think though. As I've said before, there are so many styles of Taiji and they differ so much - they can't all be right. I have a set of rules and much of what is done in Taijiquan breaks those rules. You all probably have some rules and accepted definitions too - just different ones. Let's agree to disagree until we meet up, because I have a tried and tested systemisation that really works - I'm not going to throw it away just because we can't agree, and I'm sure you won't either with your understanding. We've exchanged ideas and considered each others and we remain unconvinced - that's fine. We really need to move on, so I'll leave this thread now.
The up arrow represents Dang Jin or the 'proping up force'. the sinking and rooting is still apparant as always. Dang jin is fundimental to CMA especially tai chi. i agree completely. the arrows in the legs refer to the force proping up, force sinking into the leg is esily exploited by someone doing a shot. the sprawl method is designed to negate the downward force applied. Master Su crushes the opponents head as ha sprawls backwards. The connection i would expect to be diagonally against the jaw and upper back of the neck creating a shocking strike direction. I will film the workshop i am doing on the application of Ji this weekend so we can have some more ideas. good idea! I also like Lu ...... anyone else like Lu? Chris
As for Ji this is how I was taught and practice it, the best explanation I can offer is from Grandmaster Jou Tsung Hwa and the classic verse on Ji. He writes: "Press or Ji: However, of the eight gates of Taijiquan, ji is the one that most completely expresses the nature of water. Therefore, execute the posture of ji like water entering a crack in a rock. The water first sticks to the rock's outer surface and the sinks into the rock to destroy it. (later) The song of Ji explains it: There are two ways to apply Ji. The direct way is with an intention, "opening and closing" is just in a moment. The indirect way is to use the reaction force, like a rubber ball hitting the wall and rebounding. Or a coin thrown on a drumhead. Let the opponent be like the coin, bouncing off with a tinkling sound." Though, I was thinking that if we were going to start discussing the 8 gates specifically maybe start a new thread for each gate for ease of navigation? Middleway recommended Lu so we could start a thread solely for Lu.
hey taoquan I've always liked the analogy of a ball bouncing of a wall.. Often having used the visualisation. what happens between the force of the ball and the wall. tha's right - the energy is squeezed to a point. which causes the rebound effect - has to rebound. Often seen in the 'bouncing away' thing often shown in some push hands or applications and such. But is that effect the only useful thing going on there for combat. The only application or technique? I know your're not saying that, but I'll answer probably not. Very useful if you can afford to be really nice of course.. and run away straight after of course. Which you should always do.. of course. Interesting verse. Cheers.
