What is "Vee-Jitsu"?

Discussion in 'Other Styles' started by Sandninjer, Nov 13, 2013.

  1. Sandninjer

    Sandninjer Shiisha-jutsu Expert

    I'm sorry but that does not impress me. I'm not saying the whole art is completely useless - after all, it's using boxing and ju-jutsu. I just don't see that it's a very effective combination of the two so far. The guy you speak of may very well have more experience in either boxing or ju-jutsu than me, or even both, so that doesn't really contribute much to your opinion.
     
  2. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    In you OP you were stating you were annoyed by his attitude that he is the best, then your tone was somewhat mocking since he didn't do the things you would expect regarding spelling etc.

    But if he can actually kick butt (its a different guy btw) then that kinda trumps everything for me. There is little value is stating how your lineage is better and your spelling is better if the people who study this thing that you deride can actually deliver on the promise to make it an effective way to fight.

    The guy I know is a high level Karate guy, and a big lad too which is why on that alone I would say he can handle most people without even looking at how bad the Vee stuff might be. If there are enough people like that within the system, as I get the feeling that there are, then the system itself can get quite tough as they have the realism and understanding from their other arts to know what is larping and what is not.

    As I have soured into a grumpy old man I care less about the lineage and the paperwork and care more about the ability to actually fight, and I respect the heck out of people who can fight.

    So, if your art is 'better' but you can't beat their people in a good scrap then what is better about it? It's one of those tree falling in the forest type high brow philosophical musings of mine.
     
  3. Sandninjer

    Sandninjer Shiisha-jutsu Expert

    Sorry, I want to make sure I understand you correctly: the same guy you mentioned who is a "high level guy" in Vee Jitsu is also a "high level" Karate guy too, and on the grounds of being a big guy and an expert in Karate you feel he can give me a whooping. Where does that give any credit to Vee Jitsu?

    As for the spelling... my take on it is like writing a book. You wouldn't write and publish a book with a typo would you? That shows unprofessionalism. It doesn't mean the book is bad, but it's a terrible first impression.
     
  4. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Tell that to the whole of the Brazilian JIU JITSU world. :)

    They miss-spell "Jiu" (Ju) and "Jitsu" (Jutsu).
     
  5. Sandninjer

    Sandninjer Shiisha-jutsu Expert

    LOL, yeah, I thought of that shortly after writing the OP. But I guess it's no longer a "first" impression with BJJ then either... haha.
     
  6. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I view using jiu jitsu as just a historical legacy. I have books from the early 20th century called "jiu-do" for example.
    I'm sure this usage has the same sort of legacy.
    And as for first impressions...if it's your first impression then you won't know that that "jutsu" is considered more correct that "jitsu" so I doubt it makes any difference at all to most people. :)
     
  7. Sandninjer

    Sandninjer Shiisha-jutsu Expert

    Yeah I don't mean that just because they spelled it incorrectly that their style is useless. I will never argue the effectiveness of BJJ - plus I have several good friends who study it and are very, very talented. But at least BJJ has earned a good reputation for being effective. As for, uh... VAJ, from my current knowledge about it (which honestly isn't a whole lot), it doesn't appear as effective as the styles it's borrowing from. Granted my perspective can change as I've mentioned multiple times already, so a part of me is giving it the benefit of the doubt.

    Now that I think of it, perhaps my initial reaction to it wouldn't have been so poor if I hadn't seen the instructor being a total douche.
     
  8. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    Yes, I believe that the backgrounds of the students studying the art directly impact the legitimacy of the art, more so than any fluff about lineage. Here's why:

    Take X Jitsu
    In order to be accepted to train in this art you must have a 3rd Dan in Judo from the USA Judo board, and have competed in 5 MMA matches at professional level. If you do not have this experience you will not be taught.

    Take Y Jutsu
    Your background is not relevant anyone can learn.

    Now, where are you most likely to find serious training partners who understand when a technique is working and when it is 'too deadly' and where are the overall standards likely to be higher?

    For me, the people in X Jitsu have already proven that they are tough cookies and therefore they wouldn't be wasting their time in an art that wasn't legit (in the sense that it kicks butt) so their presence endorses the art, and also in a symbiotic relationship ensures that the art is being studying in a properly demanding manner.

    People in Y Jutsu have no frame of reference, so simply have no idea if they are being properly resistant, or learning effective things, and they need to rely on the teacher being good and honest. I think people in Y Jutsu are more likely to cling onto the trappings of the art and lose site of the value of being able to fight.

    For me - the name of the art doesn't matter, the rank doesn't matter, the lineage doesn't matter. All that matters is: are they better than me at a core component that is tangible and meaningful to my study.

    For me that core component has to be fighting, not trappings or superfluous things like scrolls, relationships, dress code etc.
     
  9. Sandninjer

    Sandninjer Shiisha-jutsu Expert

    I believe you've misunderstood me. You've brought up lineage a few times already. I have nothing against new styles. As I already made my thoughts clear, my disagreement is with new styles taking other styles and producing something new which appears less effective. Granted, this is my assumption so far which, again, I stated several times.

    Lineage aside, you gave a fairly fancy description of converting your opinion into formulas. Are you implying that VAJ REQUIRES its practicioners to have a high level of experience in Judo or other martial arts? Because honestly, my guess is that's not true. I haven't seen that mentioned anywhere on any of their websites, so I'd really like to know how what you said applies to this discussion on VAJ.
     
  10. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    I did not say that the VAJers require anything, I made an example to explain my point because you were unclear on it and asked me to clarify.

    However, I believe that the logic translates, and if you find experienced, successful martial artists from other styles in a new style, unrelated to their previous success, such as mr Karate champ who went to VAJ then it is the same principle. He wouldn't stick around if the training wasn't offering value.

    His ability to interpret value is better than a person with no experience of fighting or training in any art.

    His presence offers legitimacy in that when he is training he will be coming at it from a more realistic place.

    I don't not believe that all people in the VAJ world have such experience, but I do believe there is a core component of them that do have the commonality that is they have solid experience in other arts, and this therefore offers me the validation in the art that is beyond other things.

    I cite lineage because since you train Genbukan you don't have anything else but Lineage and the trappings of it to refer to - there is no testing of the art. Therefore I can see why you might focus on Jitsu/Jutsu spellings to find a way to show why yours is better, it just isn't something that holds water with me.
     
  11. Sandninjer

    Sandninjer Shiisha-jutsu Expert

    I think at this point, it'll be easier for me to just provide my responses in bold+red text within your post.

     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2013
  12. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    I cannot believe you stole Ms Frodo's pen and think you can get away with it!

    I'll try to reply to your comments, but cannot quote you:

    I'm referring to VAJ based on personal experience and knowing the backgrounds of their people, which I think is more substantial than your video analysis. I will go onto add that I have not watched the video in this thread.

    Regarding upbringing and whatnot - sure, I am talking as a general concept. But I do know that if the art is serious and you achieve in it then you are a serious guy/gal to deal with when it comes to fighting. If a serious fighter is training in a new art it implies two things:

    1. The art offers value to a person who has already proven they are solid students and know how to beat another person in fight or

    2. The tough guy doesn't care about the new art at all and is doing it just to open up a mcdojo and make money. Possible, but doesn't make a lot of sense if you have a verifiable competition record in your existing/previous art.

    Try another example - if Marcelo Garcia stated he was training Bujinkan do you think that a ton of highly skilled people would start training in it too? He would offer legitimacy. Now, the guy I know is not that famous so it is not so extreme, but he has done enough to offer legitimacy along the same principle.

    Lastly, I cited Genbukan as you study it, so we can connect to things that make sense in the conversation. From a competitive aspect, which was my point there is no difference between Genbukan, Bujinkan, Aikido or any other art that doesn't have a competition structure.
     
  13. Sandninjer

    Sandninjer Shiisha-jutsu Expert

    If your comments are based on personal experience then I'll definitely take that into serious consideration. Yes I agree that videos alone don't do justice (just how videos of Ninjutsu seem to have given the Takamatsuden arts today a pretty poor name in the broader MA community), but since before you (and this post where you just mentioned you've witnessed it first hand) no one has any experience or knowledge of it, I stuck to my first impression.

    I subtly called out the possibility of me being wrong a few posts ago when I mentioned that perhaps my poor first impression was based on the "douche baggery" of the local instructor in this area. But I can't argue with your above post. I do agree and I was leaning more toward the #2 option.

    If you come across any more accurate videos of VAJ styles, I wouldn't mind seeing them.

    PS - My apologies to Frodo :p
     
  14. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Yeah don't type that into google.
     
  15. Sandninjer

    Sandninjer Shiisha-jutsu Expert

    lmao!
     
  16. Sandninjer

    Sandninjer Shiisha-jutsu Expert

    I just found the dude's profile on Facebook (the one I referred to in my OP) and realized he's not such a bad character after all. Apparently he's part of a slightly different system which isn't referred to as VAJ (hehe), but MVJ (modern Vee-Jitsu). I'm going to retract my previous opinions (in conjunction with Mattt's first-hand experience) and give this style a thumbs up on my behalf, for whatever that's worth. As I said before, I have no problem admitting I'm incorrect if I realize it.
     
  17. mattt

    mattt Valued Member

    Big of you to say that, good job. To be clear though, I've no first hand experience of the Vaj Jitz only first hand experience of knowing one of their senior guys through other arts and through that knowing there is a core of quality within the group.
     
  18. Sandninjer

    Sandninjer Shiisha-jutsu Expert

    Ah, thought you saw it yourself as well. But thanks. I guess it really does come down to instructors > style. I mean, I am still in some disagreement with his approach in marketing his school haha, but after learning to put that first impression aside and seeing some of his personal posts as well, I may have jumped the gun on him and his system as well.

    Looking forward to some good videos of MVJ in the future. I guess, new styles always intrigue me.
     

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