What Is The Value Of Hubud

Discussion in 'Filipino Martial Arts' started by mannie de matos, Apr 30, 2005.

  1. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter

    Mannie de Matos,

    In internet forums the use of all capital letters is taken as the equivalent as shouting. If you want to emphasise a point I'd suggest you use either italics or bold to highlight the text, this will avoid any confussion in the future.

    Regards,

    Col S, Your friendly neighbourhood moderator :)
     
  2. mannie de matos

    mannie de matos Valued Member

    Thank you all, i live and learn.

    No offence intended.
     
  3. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    To control the wirst of an opponent you would have to be in Medio or Corto range would you not, I cannot see how you can contol the wrist from Largo. Please explain in more detail, or possibly post some pic's so I can see what you mean.

    Now no offence but this bit scares me, having dome the FMA (Arnis/Eskrima) for a while now, I always learnt that to kick higher than the leg would and does run a risk of your leg being hacked to peices. For instance, A. is holding a Barong, B. Kicks a High Cricle Kick, A. Chops off leg of B. So you see I cant see how Hubud would work like this. Please again explain in more detail.

    In any form of Hubud there is no stop untill the opponent is overcome, unless you are just training the drill, then the drill will flow from one person to the other and back again. But to use it in combat you only use a small portion of the drill it's self. Just as a boxer would not nessesarily use the full jab, cross, hook, uppercut combination every thime he decided to throw some punches.

    Correct me if I am wrong but is not Hubud is like an advance version of a boxers pad work, or like similar in principal (but not I feel in practice) to WC Chi Sao, it is a tool that trains your reactions and applications when you are in a freeflow combat situation, it enables you to move from one counter to the next every time you feel resistance from your opponent until you no longer feel the resistance, then it teaches you to spot the oppertunity to come out of the hubud and finish off your opponent. In order for hubud to work (as far as I have been taught that is) you have to stick to your opponents every move and with something akin to passive resistance manouver them in to such a posstion that they can no longer put up resitance against your attack. Hence the need for stickyness being a priority in Hubud. Something that I feel you can only acheive in the Corto range. But I may be wrong.

    That is why I and some others who have been playing FMA for a little while now cannot see how you would apply Hubud to Largo and Medio ranges. Now most of us here are very open minded and always like to be educated and see something knew, that is why I suggested earlier that you post some pics or link us to some video footage on the web so we can get a better understanding where you are comming from. As I don't think your getting your point across in text alone. I feel some kind of pictorial explenation would further help us understand what you mean by Medio and Largo Hubud.

    Best regards

    Pat
     
    Last edited: May 9, 2005
  4. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    Also Mannie, what made you feel the need to combine FMA with WC and Muay Thai, did you feel the FMA or the other styles you combined had something missing, or was it just a personal thing you felt would benefit yourself?

    Just curious is all.

    Best regards

    Pat
     
  5. mannie de matos

    mannie de matos Valued Member

    It really was an is amalgamation and combinations of styles between myself, my Kali instructor and my Wing Chun Instructor. As our system is a combination of all these systems including western boxing which is my forte it was only appropriate that we blended them all into an Hubud melting pot.
    As you do the Hakarac Hubud you get a feel at times of WC other times FMA / MT etc..

    I also request that every student on a monthly basis present a unique Hubud drill that brings out their individuality.
    This is a great exercise - a lot of students come from different martial backgrounds and it shows. (sometimes not so pretty)
     
  6. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    I too started off in Boxing, Boxed for 5 years, won some, lost some. Thai Boxed for 15 years, won some and lost some. I had some expeariance of Wing Chun, but to be honest I prefered the FMA empty hand trapping to the Wing Chun, but that is a personal thing.

    But I still cant see how you can apply Hubud to Largo and Medio. I need to see it for myself to understand what yu are actually doing hence I asked you to give us some kind of pictorial explanation. Maybe as stated before by others we call it something else as opposed to hubud.

    Maybe it would also help if you gave us a bit more background of yourself, e.g. how long you have been training in FMA and with who, and how and why you combined the arts you did and for what reason?

    I mean, we all like to see a new slant on things and in typical FMA fashion if we can see that it works we will use it.

    Best regards

    Pat
     
  7. mannie de matos

    mannie de matos Valued Member

    Hi Pat,

    Our Hubud execises does not take into consideration weapons as we in Australia never carry any. I know that in Asian countries they do, but we focus on our back yard.
    We control the wrist form long range strikes. Long Jab - Stab Punch
    Eg. Attacker Long Jabs - You Parry with mirror hand - other hand controls - your rear leg thigh kicks.

    Hubud is and is not similar to boxing padwork.
    In boxing (14 years) padwork also has that many variables and attitude in training that we could talk for hours. But it always relies on the strike where the Hubud relies on oppourtunity. Boxing looks for the eye and hand striking coordination while the Hubud looks for the eye and hand sensitivity from flow to strike.

    The difference from our Hubuds is that we do not relie on sensitivity a great deal. We look for the flow & always to the dead zone to facilitate strikes. Also our Hubud does not venture into locks or takedowns. We are a boxing club and want instant striking opportunity.
     
  8. mannie de matos

    mannie de matos Valued Member

    Sorry Pat missed your previous.

    My martial arts accreditations include
    - 7 Star Praying Mantis under Sifu Jimmy tsui
    - Budo-Jitsu CQC under Rob Gear
    - 14 years amateur boxing
    - Wing Chun Kuen under Sifu Rolf Clausnitzer
    - Harimau Kali / Silat under Guru Peter Baker
    - Floro Fighting Systems under Raymond Floro
    - Muay Thai under Kru Tommy Burns
    - Tae Kwon Do under Sok Pok Kim

    I always competed in boxing in karate & TaeKwonDo. I also trained in the martial arts all my life. But i always felt that especially in boxing that martial arts had a lot to offer it. So years ago i started experimenting in martial techniques to compete in boxing with. And it worked - i won.
    But could never put the pieces together into a managable syllabus.
    Then in 2004 i approached my instructors and asked their contribution in formullating a boxing system that could not only compete in boxing but in all other martial fight nights as well as provide an avenue for art & fitness and most importantly a system that would deal in everyday confrontations. From verbal to physical - from passive to violent - from zero to hero.
    Thank god they helped and here we are today with two school and over 150 adult students.

    We at the momemt are working on some segments for the Australasian Tae Kwon Do magazine and as soon as we have some pics i will post them.

    Thank you for your interest.
     
  9. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    I hate to say this, but naughty boys from what ever country carry weapons and if you train your guys for real life encounters you have to assume your attacker carries a weapon, that is after all what FMA is all about. Even here in Jolly old England criminals carry weapons as I know they do too in Australia. It's not an Asian thing, it's a human thing.

    As I understand FMA, if you can catch your opponents hand or even parry it, you are in Medio range, I may have misunderstood this, but that is what I have been led to beleive.

    True, but Hubud is in it's self a Corto Range sensetivity flow that allows you to manipulate your resisting opponent in order to strike them with your finishing blows, locks, breaks and counters at close range.

    No offence, but that is not Hubud, it is something else. Also FMA also looks for the instant strike when ever possible and if this is not possible and you are in close then Hubud then comes in to it's own. Ther are oppertunities to hit your opponent first fast and hard as in all MA's but their are also times when this is not possible, in real life encounters that is. The reason for Hubud as I see it, is if you are tangled up, up close and personal, you train your reactions to be able to deal with your opponent no matter what they try to throw at your or how they try to resist you. And sometimes it is far easier to lock your opponent that it is to punch you opponent, especially when they are in your face.

    But that is what I have been told what Hubud is. A clos range Senistivity drill that trains you to react and counter you oppnent with what ever is the easiest technique at the time. Maybe you have a different understanding of what Hubud is, so please show us, give us some pictures.

    best regards

    Pat
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2005
  10. shootodog

    shootodog restless native

    that actually sounds more like a chinese martial arts thing to do.
     
  11. mannie de matos

    mannie de matos Valued Member

    My Hubud is not everybodies elses Hubud.

    We can keep on dancing this dance and i can keep on giving you examples of Hakarac Hubud, but to no avail as it doesn't fit into your mold, and that is fine, as it not only shows individuality but uniqueness from both parties.

    Hakarac Hubud is a bit chinese and a bit filipino and any other system that can influence its growth.

    The deal with street scenarious is this in Australia
    (11 years doorman-baseball bats / pipes / rocks / sprays / no knife)
    1. Empty hand assaults - 89%
    2. Blunt Weapon Assaults - 6%
    3. Edge Weapon Assaults - 2.5%

    Until the next dance & keep on pushing the boundries.
     
  12. Crucible

    Crucible Valued Member

    Mannie,
    do you have video clips online somewhere with examples of Hakarac Hubud?
     
  13. Crucible

    Crucible Valued Member

    Is Hakarac an acronym?
     
  14. shootodog

    shootodog restless native

    obviously it isn't the traditional hubud.

    who knows. maybe years down the line, your hubud would out last the traditional hubud and that your drill is actually more "effective" as a sensitivity drill.

    keep at it man!
     
  15. mannie de matos

    mannie de matos Valued Member

    Hi Shootodog,

    Not as yet, but we are launching our web site shortly with history, clips, techniques etc.. (as soonas we do i will post it)

    Hakarac is and East-Timorese dialect meaning many ways.
    (I'm from East Timor)
     
  16. shootodog

    shootodog restless native

    okay just for clarity's sake. in fma:

    if both combatants extend thier arms...

    largo (long range) is if the fist or guy "a" meets the fist of guy "b".
    medio (medium range) is it the fist of guy "a" can knock on the elbow of guy "b".
    corto (close range) is when guy "a" can rest his hands on guy "b"'s shoulders.
     
  17. NeilX66

    NeilX66 Valued Member

    Could the differences on this thread be due to a semantic misunderstanding ?

    Hubud (a contraction of higot hubud lubud, to tie, untie and blend ) to me is as Pat and Lucy have described ( hardly surprising seeing how long I've known them ), and describes to me, and as I see it most traditional FMAers, a very specific flow drill for training sensitivity and entry techniques to locks, take downs etc.

    If i have read Mannies description correctly his form of hubud seems to be techniques to clear an incoming attack or clear an interception which then flows on to a stricking technique, have I got this right ? In my mind I'm seeing a more flowing version of pak sao, lop sao type techniques, setting up a boxing combination, in which case the use of the word hubud, as to untie, would make sense, as you are untying your opponents defences to allow for a counter attack, Hakarac Hubud = many ways untying, am I getting close? or completley off the mark

    Neil
     
  18. Lucy O'Malley

    Lucy O'Malley The Mother Art

    So you mean he is using the term loosley. Whereas we are seeing a specific type of drill in association with the name hubud.

    That sounds very JKD'ish.

    Rather than using a specific drills name such as hubud, would it not be better for him to use terms such as corto, medio and largo contrada to explain the range and application of the techinique and counter which would then allow you to implement as many drills as you like within this termonology, rather than using a specific drills name such as hubud which is known generally by traditional FMA'ers as a close range sensitivity drill.

    It is fine to come up with your own system and your own way of doing things, combining different arts that you feel would be effective, but missusing termonologies unique to a specific art, not only causes confusion but also raises suspicion of those that have spent a long time teaching and training within the art.

    Personally when someone says "my hubud is not your hubud" or similar comments to this....I think it is a cop out and sounds very similar to the Dannino tribe from Santo ;) if you know what I mean. We could all say that when under pressure as apposed to admitting that we may be misunderstanding something.

    If you are going to use a loose term......find a loose term, not a specific term known by many.

    If I was creating my own system, I would create my own terms and drill names too....that would really show initiative.

    How can you do FMA and use FMA terms but not use weapons :confused: Sorry but weapons are the first thing you learn in tradional FMA before you even learn empty hand.

    I think there is a little self promotion going on here....as questions are being asked yet it seems he already has the answers to his own questions and our responses are disliked. Typical salesmans ploy, only ask the questions you already know the answers to. There is no need for him to try to sell his system to us when we already know we are doing the best art in the world, in my opinion, that is. :D

    We can all constantly drop our systems name, look.....Rapid Arnis.Rapid Arnis.Rapid Arnis.Rapid Arnis.Rapid Arnis.Rapid Arnis.Rapid Arnis.Rapid Arnis.Rapid Arnis.Rapid Arnis.Rapid Arnis.Rapid Arnis.Rapid Arnis.Rapid Arnis.Rapid Arnis.Rapid Arnis.Rapid Arnis.Rapid Arnis.Rapid Arnis.Rapid Arnis.Rapid Arnis.Rapid Arnis.Rapid Arnis.Rapid Arnis.Rapid Arnis.Rapid Arnis.Rapid Arnis.Rapid Arnis.Rapid Arnis.Rapid Arnis.Rapid Arnis.Rapid Arnis.

    My punch is not your punch, my kick is not your kick, my elbow is not your elbow, my headbutt is not your headbutt, my crossada is not your crossada, by totsada 'y' lagarda is not your totsada 'y' largarda, my abcdario is not your abcdario and I now know for a fact that my hubud is deffinately not your hubud, but I can bet my bottom dollar that they are similar to other trained FMA'ers in the world. :D If you start saying things like this...conversations start to quickly go nowhere.

    But anyway, see all you's that are going to Diony Canete's seminar this weekend in London, hopefully to share some beers afterwards too.

    Lots of love :love:

    Lucy
     
  19. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    Yep, or the tip of the stick from guy "a" meets the fist of guy "b"

    Yep, or the tip of the stick can of guy "a" can hit the body or the head of guy "b"

    Yep, or you guy "a" can now strike with the punyo (butt) of the stick, or basically drop the nut on him.

    Very clear indeed:D

    Best regards

    Pat
     
  20. Pat OMalley

    Pat OMalley Valued Member

    Very Dannino:rolleyes:

    So it is not FMA then:confused: I'm pleased it works for you but, lets be honest from what you have desrcibed before it is not Hubud as it seems to me from your long range drill you have to disengadge in order for the training partner to also perform their portion of the set routine.
    Hubud flows from one person to the next.

    15 years on the doors and I never kept a tally, as a matter of fact I lost count in the first year.


    Quick question. In your opinion what do you perceive as FMA???

    Do you feel FMA is an adequate self defence system or it is lacking in something????

    Best regards

    Pat
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2005

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