What is Mu Sool Won

Discussion in 'Kuk Sool' started by The_Beak, Aug 3, 2010.

  1. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Thanks, Unknown.

    The question is a bit difficult to ask because I know that there are a lot of splinter groups in the KS community. I raised the question because I have seen more than a few qualifiers crop up from time to time (IE: "pre-this" or "post-that"). What I am working to do is tip-toe around the political standings and business issues to ask if there are fundamental differences in content or execution among the KS groups the way one might find differences between, say, Hapkido traditions of JI Han Jae compared to KIM Moo Woong? If there are differences among practitioners, are the differences substantial or more along the lines of "pinky-up/ pinky down" variety? Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

  2. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    :D Yeah, I like that interpretation (pinky-up vs. pinky-down).

    I think it may be a bit difficult to pigeonhole it along those lines, though. Simply because some of the offshoots carry on with no change in the curriculum they teach, just following a different political or financial structure, and others take advantage of being able to *call the shots* as it were, and seize the opportunity to modify the focus of what they teach (using "aliveness" for example).

    In general, I'd have to categorize the majority of the *other* kuk-sool groups (i.e. non-Won) as only being separated by minor differences (pinky-up vs. pinky-down variety) and not by anything too major. So if you want to scrutinize kuk-sool in a generic sense, merely looking at KSW should suffice, with a quick glance at a few of the others just to make sure you didn't miss something important (as I believe a brief overview would be sufficient to determine anything which might be vastly different in nature).

    I'm not sure I qualify as a definitive resource for making such a determination, but that's my 2¢ FWIW.
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2010
  3. Bruce W Sims

    Bruce W Sims Banned Banned

    Many thanks for your thoughts.

    Best Wishes,

  4. The_Beak

    The_Beak Valued Member

    I wasn't looking for MMA+dobok more like KSW+aliveness-$$ grabbing. Combining KMA and aliveness has yeilded some interesting results.

    I have had precious little training in both but i have trained both and as I said in a previous post, If there is a school in SA(there is/Yay) I will judge that myself(I will).

    I have no Idea what that entails.
    For anyone wishing to learn more about 'aliveness' these videos should help.
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TL05Es8LVAQ"]YouTube- Words of Wisdom PT 1[/ame]

    Thank you all very much for the info. Thank you VM for your concern
  5. Samagi

    Samagi Valued Member

    Let me save some folks some investigative time. Yes, my school in San Antonio is one of the five Mu Sool Won schools under Grandmaster BIL. I run my school for the most part based on what I believe my teacher expects of me. I share his values.

    Aliveness training is a part of my training plan. HOWEVER, this esoteric training is only provided to individuals that meet the following criteria:

    - must be over 18 years of age;
    - must be a 2nd Dahn or higher in our system/style;
    - must sign a legal waiver and provide his own insurance;

    This also does not mean that the person automatically can train.

    I proudly served in the military and 7 years with a Federal Law Enforcement Agency.

    Many of my close friends and fellow Black Belts are Law Enforcement Officers. In the past several years in San Antonio, there has been an influx of individuals wanting to sharpen their skills in street fighting. Many of this individuals learned fighting skills in prison and in the streets. Many Law Enforcement Officer have recently reported that they are now at a serious disadvantage. Unfortunately, shrinking budgets have not allowed adequate training for our officers.

    I stand firm on who will learn these particular fighting skills in my school. I will also gladly refer anyone not pleased with my rules two blocks down to the Brazilian JJ school.
    Frank colwell likes this.
  6. VegasMichelle

    VegasMichelle Valued Member

    Aliveness training is fantastic! And I can understand and respect most of your rules as they definitely do make alot of sense.

    Do you allow your students to cross-train with that BJJ school 2 blocks down the road? What is MSW's stance on cross-training in general?

    I ask this because according to your rules, a person would need to be 2nd dahn or higher...which can take 7-10 years starting from scratch to even be considered eligible to train alive at your school.

    So a motivated and gift student who meet all the requirements except dahn-rank...might want to train alive after 2 or 3 years of training. Would this student be free to goto that BJJ school down the road...and still train in MSW, essentially waiting for that rank promotion to 2nd dahn?


    I ask this in relation to the OP. He claims not to have much experience in KS ("precious little training") so if he really was looking for aliveness...he bettered be prepared to wait 7-10 years before his rank meets your requirements. Or, indeed, just start with that BJJ school in the first place.
  7. Samagi

    Samagi Valued Member

    I discourage but don't prohibit cross training. Many may disagree with me (and that is perfectly o.k.) but it is difficult to serve two masters.

    Yes, he would need to wait until he reached 2nd Dahn in MSW before I would consider adding him to MY training group. I will not include an individual into this group until I am totally comfortable with his motives in learning techniques at that level.

    San Antonio has a disproportionate number of thugs, punks, gangstas and cons running around. I refuse to add to the risks law enforcement officers already have. I always question "motives" when these young guys walk in inquiring about my program.

    In September, I will begin training approximately 25 Law Enforcement officers from an area agency. They will receive a good portion of Aliveness training. These classes however will be closed to the general student base.
    Frank colwell likes this.
  8. mikeksw

    mikeksw New Member

    Master Lee's School is in North Austin, TX just off 183 and north of Anderson Mill Road - if that helps any
  9. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    I reckon that most street thugs and punks do very well thank you without the need of martial arts training. Most of those kind of people are quite used to being involved in 'in-your-face-violence-and-aggression' situations — far more so than your average black belt martial arts instructor!
  10. Pugil

    Pugil Seeker of truth

    For me, cross-training in the martial arts has nothing to do with 'serving two (or more) masters. If I am a trained motor vehicle mechanic [which indeed I once made my living as], if I stick with the same make of vehicle all my life, it would probably mean that I would specialise on that particular brand of vehicle. (And some vehicle mechanics specialise on just one type of vehicle too.) But although other makes of cars still tend to have a similar profile, i.e. have: doors, windscreens, a boot (trunk), and four wheels (one at each corner), I have seen many a mechanic scratch their heads when confronted with a problem on a 'foreign' (to them) make of car.

    In my martial arts career, I have trained and learnt from a wide variety of people — not all of whom have been 'masters' anyway, they just happened to know and show me something that I hadn't seen before. It amuses me somewhat when (in particular) Americans make snide remarks about an assumed class-ridden society in Britain (my country), and yet seem quite happy to kow tow to foreign aliens living in their own country! What a paradox, and what a laugh!
  11. unknown-KJN

    unknown-KJN Banned Banned

    :topic: OFF-TOPIC :topic:

    Cross-training has turned into the current sub-topic, but since it doesn't strictly adhere to "What is Mu Sool Won?" I figured I should mark this post as off-topic. ;)

    FWIW, most people who work for a living don't have sufficient spare time (or money) to be attending (and paying for) a plethora of MA instruction. So "serving two masters" is usually not a part of the equation. Occasional dabbling with a friend who trains in something else shouldn't be frowned on by any instructor worth their salt, as keeping the student's best interest in mind is their job, after all. I suspect that a surprising number of WKSA BBs probably embrace this mild form of cross-training I just mentioned, as it would be difficult to get *caught* disobeying the "no cross-training" rule if engaging in such activity. Signing up for lessons at a competing MA gym would be difficult to slip past their radar, but not impossible. But since the rule is in place, doing so and them finding out would mean having to endure whatever penalty they wanted to dish out. If the penalty is expulsion, I doubt a cross-training BB would be terribly annoyed as they obviously understand that good MA techniques can be found anywhere as long as you're persistent in your search.
  12. Hyeongsa

    Hyeongsa The Duelist

    I re-read everything on here and was sad to see I had not caught the comparisons before that MSW is basically KSW pre-franchise. It is NOT a re-vistited version of Kuk Sool Won. CJN Lee has worked tirelessly to teach his instructors/school owners new forms, new techniques, and new combative principles making Mu Sool Won a relative of Kuk Sool Won, yes, but not an off shoot with Kuk Sool Won being the parent organization. Though the basic syllabus (color belt level) is realtively the same the addition of weapons to the color belt syllabus, as well as new principles for Dahn Bo Nim's, is what begins to set it apart. Mu Sool Won to my knowledge has also begun adding to the black belt syllabus in great earnest, adopting many new and exciting empty hand forms and weapon forms making it far more comprehensive than it's relative (IMHO). There has even been the adding on of combative and militaristic principles such as gun defense, knife fighting, stick fighting, and grappling manuvers by many of the school owners. However, the point of MSW being a "family martial art" is still made and encouraged to my knowledge. Everyone treats each other with mutual respect and kindness, regardless of rank, which is something I never saw in my time with KSW. Though I dont' come to MAP often anymore, I wanted it on record that the MSW folks are doing their best to not "re-create the wheel", as it were.
  13. Convergencezone

    Convergencezone Valued Member

    Various Kuk Sool schools of differing organizations have always trained in various levels of stand-up sparring, up to and including full contact fighting. (My old school used to do something similar to Kyokushin style sparring with grappling). Also, many schools do isolated grappling, and some train in non-compliant application of standing joint locks. There is no difference in what Matt Thornton is saying and the way (real) traditional martial arts school schools have always trained- I think it is just a new marketing spin to show how his gym is different than kids’ karate classes. If you want to know if MSW schools train this way, you may want to just call them and ask them:).

    EDIT: oops, didn't realize this was an old thread!
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2012

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