What is JFJKD?

Discussion in 'Jeet Kune Do' started by masponge1, Sep 28, 2015.

  1. masponge1

    masponge1 New Member

    What is JFJKD
    IT is a Style, comprised of borrowed but specific Princples, Concepts and Techniques, that have been modified, and intergrated in a complimentary way, governed by a non-traditional martial art Philosophy which allows for the evolutionary freedom of the style to grow and change, should the need arise.
     
  2. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Valued Member MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Is this an open question or a question which you answer on your own?
     
  3. masponge1

    masponge1 New Member

    Both
     
  4. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    What number am I thinking about? Six

    I suppose your description of JFJKD isn't inaccurate, but it's pretty general. I'd have thought that a full explanation of Jun Fan should at least mention the role of wing chun.
     
  5. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    And fencing and boxing

    In fact as descriptor it is pretty trite and unhelpful
     
  6. Botta Dritta

    Botta Dritta Valued Member

    Just out of interest I looked into Peter Lee who may have been Bruce's first point of reference in Fencing. He was a master of arms which may sound cool, but to a fencer that means hes a good all rounder but doesnt shine at any particular discipline. Foil, Epee and Sabre are at the highest technical levels as differents as batminton, squash and Tennis. That being said because they have to learn a larger repetoire of moves they do gravitate towards teaching, being the technical 'geeks' of the sport. So its almost certain he blabbed on about his sport to his younger brother

    http://www.lscoba.com/remembered.php?catid=3&subid=26&id=141

    The thing that always puzzeled me is that although the main tactical aspect he took from fencing was the stop hit (on preparation) most of his own notes come from Crosniers Foil book, and stop hits are rarer for tactical/rule reasons at foil. His own brother was according to his Commonwealth games result 1958 a better Eppeist than a Foilist.

    http://www.thecgf.com/games/results.asp

    One of Bruces students somewhere on the net claimed that Peter was sceptical about foil because of the Right of Way rules (dont ask- can of worms). So there is a discrepancy between where Bruce took his notes from and where he may have taken his tactical view point from.
    Lastly there is this

    http://youtu.be/iFWeLM5h7Dg

    Which is something else entirely. There is a marked difference between the French School and the Italian school of fencing tactically and stylistically, at least prior to the 1960's. When I saw Barbasetti on this video I thought:

    1) damn that is rare! That Italian author is rare to find today!
    2) ahhhh THATS why he moves in the Italian style like rather than the french. Everyone bangs on about he used fencing footwork, but in the 1950' s fencing footwork in the anglosaxon sphere was was slighlty turgid in comparison to today and certainly not as dynamic as Bruces's. Italian footwork (50/50 - 70/30) was always slightly more dynamic than the French tradition (most weight on the back leg, 70/30 - 80/20 ) and Crosnier who Bruce quoted from was the worst proponent of undynamic footwork that hobbled British fencing for decades.

    So yeah. Fencing. But aslightly schizophrenic approach based on a number of different sources.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2015
  7. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Which is also true for the "legendary 26"
     
  8. masponge1

    masponge1 New Member

    So I will explain.
    For Years, I've constantly have read on many martial arts forums the endless debate over what JFJKD is and isn't. Most of the answers seem to deal in partiality when Bruce appeared to be striving for totality. JFJKD seems to be described today much the same way the elephant in that story where several blind men are each touching a different part of the animal and describing the elephant from their partial perspective. So one blind guy is touching the tail and describes the elephant as short and slim, another blindman wraps his arms around the leg and describes the elephant as round, thick and tall. A third blind man feels on the tusk and says the elephant is smooth and sharp. Etcetera.
    The truth is the blindmen are partially right and totally wrong.

    One of the first and most popular topics of disagreement is, is JFJKD a style or just a philosophy.I have found it to be both.How is JFJKD a style? It is a style because there are specific Techniques that are specific to JFJKD. Many of these techiques have been borrowed from other styles.

    Which leads into another topic of debate.The techniques of JFJKD, are they made up of 26 different arts or made up of solely Wing Chun, Boxing & Fencing. No matter what side of the argument you fall on the main and most important point that seems to be missed by some, is that the techniques have been modified from their original borrowed sources.I think that is a really important piece of the puzzle.
    I myself believe JFJKD is primarily composed of the latter. However I suspect some of the findings of Bruce's research in the former have also found it's way into JFJKD.

    Going back to the first generally debated topic, is JFJKD a style or just a philosophy, I believe it's both. JFJKD's philosophy is comprised of many principles and concepts. and is truly non traditional. One aspect of its philosophy is that it lets the practitioner evolve JFJKD into his very own.
     
  9. masponge1

    masponge1 New Member

    Hey AP Oweyn, I've read many of your post over the years. Thank you for input I've learned a lot from your post.

    I wrote my initial post in the hope that it would help those that might be new to JFJKD not to get caught up in the endless debate cycle of trying to define what JFJKD is. I agree with you that the definition I wrote of JFJKD is general but I hope it covers the overall main points of JFJKD. Points that I hope new practitioners will consider as they learn & train. For me, at one time I thought JFJKD was just a philosophy and you could do anything you want. Then I thought it was specifically Wing Chun mixed with (kick) boxing and later Muay Thai and FMA. I wish I had the definition above at the beginning of my JKD journey. I think it would have got me to where I am and where I'm going sooner than later.

    Thanks
     
  10. masponge1

    masponge1 New Member

    Hey Hannibal after re-reading my initial post I would have to say I can see your point.

    I guess I should have written that JFJKD is Bruce Lee's personal martial art that he created comprised of Wing Chun, Boxing & Fencing. Then again this too might seem pretty trite and unhelpful.
     
  11. Botta Dritta

    Botta Dritta Valued Member

    Problem is that Wing Chun, Boxing and Fencing are well documented in his notes. But what about his kicking? It certainly is very different from Wing Chun and looks to be Savate.

    But to my knowledge he never studied Savate from anyone and the few notes in from the Tao of JKD seems to be notes and tracings from a Black Belt magazine article on Savate.

    Its a bit of a mystery. His own notes include investigations into far more martial arts than he seems to have direct experience in.
     
  12. masponge1

    masponge1 New Member

    Cool. Thanks for sharing. What do you think of Nadi and his possible contribution to JFJKD? I read some where that he raised his rear heel during bouts at a time when fencers generally keep the heel down.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFzAB4mwB5k"]1922 Gaudin vs Nadi - YouTube[/ame]
    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjYg0ByTP4Q"]1935 Aldo Nadi vs Nedo Nadi - YouTube[/ame]
     
  13. Botta Dritta

    Botta Dritta Valued Member

    The raised heel? He wasn't the only proponent. I think (but can't source this for definite) he took this from a french fencer called Kirchoffer. But yes it appear in his manual "On Fencing" which some sections are quoted verbatim in the The Tao of Jeet Kune Do.

    For a slightly more abrasive analysis on Nadi's influence please read a book by Teri Tom, one of Ted Wongs students, called I think "the straight lead" where she examines boxing and fencing impact on JKD. I dont agree with everything she says but on fencing she is on the whole correct.

    The reason why the heel was down originally had to do with Duelling. On uncertain terrain you don't want your back foot to slip so you place the heel down. However on a fencing strip or flat surface by raising your heel you improve mobility especially when changing direction or retreating before marching attacks or fleches.

    Much of the difficulty in beginners in footwork in modern fencing is teaching them unfix their rear heel when stepping but powering off with the heel down when lunging to generate explosive power
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2015
  14. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    Not sure I'm worthy but you're welcome.

    I don't know. Part of me thinks we need to be wrong in order to eventually be right. So in this case I don't know that people would benefit from a better prepackaged definition as much as they do from listening to the back and forth and putting the time in to hear the whole jumbled mess. Maybe you've gotten where you did precisely because of the mess and having to unsort it all.

    Not rhetorical. I could be wrong.
     
  15. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    P.s. I have a copy of Aldo Nadi's On Fencing downstairs. One of those gems scored in an antique shop.
     
  16. masponge1

    masponge1 New Member

    Very Insightful and Illuminating. Thanks AP!
     
  17. warchylde

    warchylde Valued Member

    O.k here goes.. you had Jun Fan Gung fu (modified Wing Chun in Sifu Bruce's words) which was Sifu Bruce Lees style of Martial Art with Wing Chun as the nucleus/Core.

    Then Sifu let go of style's and system's, the classical mess as he stated, dry land swimming and Jeet June Do was born. Different for every individual but trapping still as the nucleus.

    Years after Sifu Lee's Death I think there was a split due to the possible conceptual issues (difference's of opinion on how it should develop or Sifu lee would want it to develop or be taught). You had Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do Taky Kimura and Jeet Kune Do concepts headed by Guru Inosanto. That's what Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do is a difference in opinion and only a name......What do you say hannibal?
     
  18. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Sounds about right, with the caveat that Taky never headed JFJKD...that was the BLF via the Nucleus that saw a way to cash in on....sorry..."protect"...Bruces art

    As an aside Taky always referred people to Guro Dan in the past for JKD, saying he taught Non Classical Gung Fu.
     
  19. warchylde

    warchylde Valued Member

    Glad you said it.I didn't, wanna
    Say anything about the political/financial angle involved as not offend or defame. But I think Sifu Lee may his soul rest in peace (except when his ghost comes to me at night giving personal Martial Arts tuition )would be proud in all honesty of guru Inosanto and all his boys.
     

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