What is internal?

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by icefield, Oct 2, 2021.

  1. Grond

    Grond Valued Member

    Personal insult with profanity deleted.

    Respektfully,

    -G
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 31, 2021
  2. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Huh.

    Glad that enlightenment is working out for you.
     
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  3. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Mod Warning: wow, that was disappointing. Profanity laced personal insults are not allowed on MAP. When you get back, I would suggest taking a deep breath and thinking before posting when upset.

     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2021
  4. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Did someone imply Harvard has a good reputation?

    Turns out, Harvard students aren’t that smart after all | Tayo Bero

    "Ever wondered what it takes to get into Harvard? Stellar grades, impressive extracurriculars and based on a recently published study, having deep pockets and a parent who either works or went there. Those last two are pretty important for Harvard’s white students because only about 57% of them were admitted to the school based on merit."
     
  5. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    That would apply if we were talking about someone who went to Harvard...
     
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  6. ned

    ned Valued Member

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  7. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    Just curious Dead Pool, Harvard is considered a top line educational facility here in the USA. I am sure they have issues. But you can find an article critiquing anything nowadays. No doubt all upper educational facilities all over the world are filled with privilege and rich people buying into that institution.

    But that doesn't mean the quality of the education is lacking. That article rightfully critiqued their admission standards, but not the overall quality of the education. And it is one article by one journalist. Hardly enough to tear down the overall reputation of Harvard's credentials as an institution. What are that journalist's credentials to make that one article dismiss Harvard overall?

    So, I think David Harrison has a valid point about this person NOT being a Harvard educated student. And it is a valid concern about the integrated medicine wing being a separate entity from mainstream Harvard.

    But dismissing the entire institution out of hand based on one article about admission standards? No.

    If you are saying you would dismiss anything from Harvard as not valid, well, this only reinforces my point that sometimes people say they want more evidence on here, but will find a way to tear down and dismiss anything they disagree with. That no scientific evidence or information anyone would post would ever be enough.
     
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  8. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    That's not at all the point of the article.

    The point is Harvard has been trading off its good reputation, at the expense of the quality of its intake.

    (Just like the commercial publishing wing trades off their good reputation)

    That doesn't mean it's not a high quality education overall as a university.

    That's a separate thing to Harvard medical school, which is again a separate thing to a "integrated medicine wing"

    Lots of nuance here.

    If your interested, the admission study is linked within the article, its pretty straight forward.
     
  9. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Just to note: I don't think there is anything inherently bad about Harvard Health Publishing. Looks like most of their output consists of guides for people newly diagnosed with diseases, particularly for the elderly. That's useful scientific communication and I don't have any problem with that.

    Claims on the cover of Dr. Wayne's book telling readers they will have healthy bodies, hearts and sharp minds after just 12 weeks of Tai Chi gives off a much less credible impression.

    If a pharmaceutical company were suggesting bringing a drug to market with the levels of evidence seen so far for Tai Chi, I would be just as dubious of the claims (greater danger from drug side effects notwithstanding). It's not about being biased against Tai Chi, just being honest about the evidence.
     
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  10. Grond

    Grond Valued Member

    Sorry about that. I wasn't angry, it was an attempt to be cheeky and I hoped the Ali G reference wasn't lost, but it either was, or it violated the TOS anyway, which if so, wasn't intentional.

    If we can chalk it up to an honest error, I'm fine with the time out and all. I earned it.

    I still trust Harvard for all my Tai Chi science now, because I bought that book and showed it to my Tai Chi instructor, and he loved it.

    I have no idea what Dr. Wayne's PhD is in, but I don't think it even matters. The top medical university in the United States is also the top source of Tai Chi scientific evidence, and it's a lot better and more substantive than almost anything I've read in an online MA forum, a lot of which is all about "feeling" and emotionally driven.
     
  11. Grond

    Grond Valued Member

    In my experience it's true, and I'm hardly alone.

    This is just their Tai Chi book. Harvard has similar titles on Yoga, diet, and even core strengthening. How are those marketed different.

    https://www.health.harvard.edu/promotions/bing/core-exercises-short-test-040913

    https://www.health.harvard.edu/exer...rcises-to-improve-stability-and-prevent-falls
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2022
  12. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    They are marketed differently because they give relative goals, not promises of absolute results.

    They say that following their exercises and advice will improve core strength, balance and home safety. They do not claim that in x amount of time the reader will have good balance and a strong core, because that would be an unsupportable claim. Some people, probably most people who buy those books, will never have a strong core or good balance, but they can improve both in relative terms.
     
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  13. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    That would depend on one's interpretation of "internal MA".

    If we're talking about the "internal" CMAs we obviously must discard the original (sociopolitical) meaning and if we dispense with the idea some hold that an "internal" MA system is all about gentle practices why not?

    The only things foreign -literally- to boxing would be additional mechanics, nei gungs, jing training- if you wish we'll throw in the Micro and Macro orbits. Mental/spiritual/self cultivation aspects- those are in and a result of combative practices anyhoo,what directions they go in and to what ends as always depends on the individual and their coaches/teachers. Taoism/Confucianism aren't required. I don't know if a young Tyson's intent would have been any more honed via say intent training from Hsing I.

    In regards to the thread tho' as other CMAs have these things I still don't know what makes 'internal" systems unique as a group from all other CMAs nor which systems specifically get to join the exclusive club.Instructors vary so widely in approaches and methods from the 1800s up to the present that I can't discern any rules/methods which would truly define particular systems as "internal" as opposed to....y'know...those "other":rolleyes: people. How many different ideas have been written just in this thread?

    Look at learning function.Some people learn(ed) function right from the beginning even tho' their mechanics might not be great yet or they spend/spent massive amounts of time getting everything just right before they ever throw/threw a shot. Both legit methods, and some instructors have employed both so we can't define internal CMA by training approaches.

    Both methods are also employed by other CMAs. So once again not unique in the CMA world. Most of the concepts of the ICMAs aren't isolated from the other CMAs either.The sociopolitical symbolism of "internal" starting in the 1800s pretended to be but wasn't based on fact and is now obsolete and Sun's grouping while also partly symbolical remained exclusive,just his main practices which happened to have some common grounds with each other.

    And with other systems.
     
  14. Grond

    Grond Valued Member

    So are you saying practicing Tai Chi for 12 weeks, under a legitimate instructor, will not produce similar results? This is the part I don't get, it's Harvard medicine, in print. But you don't believe it?

    Can you point to anyone who said "I did Tai Chi for 12 weeks, and it did nothing for me"? I'd love to see the counter evidence.
     
  15. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    They're selling a book/courses/certifications.It's marketing. About everything from meditation to diet books will make claims along the same lines.Hype.Not that unusual.

    I'd think for most non athletic but non sedentary if they practice at least a half hour a day for 3 months they'll improve balance and work their legs muscles in new ways,and if they're really paying attention in their practice lots of people can increase general awareness of at least some things.

    Healthy bodies, hearts, sharp minds in 12 weeks-improvement or no in the 1st 2 things will depend on the daily routines/work/diet/etc of the individual-for a frequently active person I don't know how much better overall health and heart would be in three months.

    For people in high stress situations,sedentarians, (yeah,I just coined that) esp. older folks the improvements in measurable and/or observable things from functional strength and balance to blood pressure and sometimes even the sharp mind thing tend to be greater than for more active people. So the claims are a bit absolute as much advertising is.
     
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  16. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I don't think I need to present evidence that anyone with a heart condition will not have a healthy heart after 12 weeks of Tai Chi, or someone with a condition that affects their balance will have good balance after 12 weeks of Tai Chi, or that someone with a condition that affects cognition will have a "sharp mind" after 12 weeks of Tai Chi.

    These are extraordinary, and ridiculous, claims that are not supported by studies.
     
  17. Grond

    Grond Valued Member

    Then I think your definitions of extraordinary and ridiculous are suspect.

    As far as supported by studies, can you explain why 99% of the studies out there do seem to support the claims?

    Are there counter studies you could point me to? Again, your opinion vs Harvard Medical School. It seems like you should be the one linking evidence. I've gone out of my way to give you that courtesy. Fairs fair.
     
  18. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    You're being silly now.

    99% of studies say that 12 weeks of Tai Chi cures heart disease and neurological disorders?

    Nope.

    I've already linked to reviews of research and quoted the relevant passages. It's up to you now to present evidence to support your claims.
     
  19. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    a study from 2019


    Effect of Tai Chi on Cardiac and Static Pulmonary Function in Older Community-Dwelling Adults at Risk of Ischemic Stroke: A Randomized Controlled Trial - PubMed

    Methods: A total of 170 older community-dwelling adults (aged 55-75 years old) at risk of ischemic stroke were allocated to either tai chi training group (85 cases, five 60-min sessions of tai chi training per week for 12 weeks) or control group (85 cases, usual pbysical activity for 12 weeks) using a computer-generated randomization. The echocardiographic parameters of cardiac structure, cardiac function and static lung function were measured at baseline, after 12 weeks of intervention and additional 12-week follow-up period by a blinded professional staffmember using a color Doppler ultrasound imaging device or a cardiopulmonary function instrument. The t test and linear mixed model based on the intentionto-treat analysis principle was used to calculate the effect. The adverse effect was observed.

    Results: Most of echocardiographic parameters on the cardiac structure, cardiac function and static lung function between the tai chi group and control group did not have a significant difference either post 12-week intervention or additional 12-week follow-up period. Only three parameters involving in right ventricular diameter (P=0.024), main pulmonary artery diameter (P=0.002) and vital capacity maximum (P=0.036) were beneficial to be improved in the tai chi group compared to the control group by the analysis of mixed linear model. No adverse effects were found during the intervention period.

    Conclusion: The 12-week tai chi exercise did not have an obvious beneficial effect on cardiac structure, cardiac function and static lung function in older community-dwelling adults at risk of ischemic stroke. The study with a longer duration of intervention should be necessary. (Trial registration No. ChiCTR-TRC-13003601).
     
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  20. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    Just glancing at various studies over the last few years

    In study after study for decades as regards bodily systems lowered blood pressure is the one and only thing consistently shown to improve in as little as 12 weeks. A very good thing,too.

    Just glancing at various studies conducted over the last few years shows for other significant improvements in such areas a consensus appears to be that 6,9,or more months are needed.
     
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