What is internal?

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by icefield, Oct 2, 2021.

  1. Nachi

    Nachi Valued Member Supporter

    Yeah, well, I can tell I'd probably go for the second option or that it would feel more natural for me at least. Well, probably. If you are fast and smooth enough, the telegraphing might not give you that much of a disadvantage. So for me, I'd make that trade if it was necessary. But it could be also because I am honestly not training for combat, but for fun, to improve my physical ability precision in technique and I'd be happier with a powerful strike even with the notion that I could telegraph my intention a fraction of a second too early. It's not ideal, I know, but well, my personal view.

    What style is that drill from?
     
  2. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    It's the Shuai Chiao shin bite, reverse shin bite, foot sweep combo.

    When you use your hand to push on your opponent's elbow joint, you are not trying to hurt him, but to redirect his leading arm away, use his leading arm to jam his own back arm, and expect for his respond (either resist or yield), do you need 100% power generation?

    Sometime in solo training, we may concentrate too much on "maximum power generation", and not on "using it to set up next move". IMO, 30% power generation should be enough to be used for set up.

    What's your thought on this?

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2022
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  3. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    TC has straightforward methods. It just comes down to who is teaching what. I've mentioned previously on MAP that Adam Hsu wanted his Chen/Thunder TC students to practice basic striking/footwork/etc for 5 months before beginning form. Student expectations being what they are he ended up having to compromise-3 months. Whether he was imparting more system specific-in this case his Chen/Thunder TC-mechanics at this time or just concentrating on general N. Chinese basic methods I don't know,either way is educational,either way you can continue to add more body methods over time. Either way one can develop the rudiments of function without waiting for years.

    2 notes-1)If you've never heard of it Thunder style is a Chen variant.

    2)Mr. W may have been speaking of this Adam Hsu (Hsu,Chi) who is in the NW USA,or the late Adam Hsu (Hsu,Hong-chi).
    It's what I started in and for that purpose.I just got lucky and my 1st teacher had classes for those so inclined.
     
  4. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    Gorsh,sis....thank you.

    (Oh,she means uncool,folks!)
    I get that.I separate the what from the how as the how can change over time,plus different systems can have same principle but different "hows" to achieve/follow it. These "hows" can be an important part in the differentiation of systems or even subsystems.
     
  5. Nachi

    Nachi Valued Member Supporter


    Oh, I took that technique as a palm strike to the head, in that case I would definitely go for power. One strong technique, at least from a self-defence point of view would be better than several half baked strikes, obviously.

    If the intention was to redirect the elbow and then sweep, it is a bit more tricky to answer. Well, in theory and from what can be seen from the clip, indeed, not much power would be needed then. But... if it was a situation where I was attacked - let's say in a self-defence situation - since I am a woman, chances are my opponent would be bigger and stronger than me and he'd most likely be coming at me with the intention to hit. I can't see such a person be as compliant as the one in the clip. If the person is stronger and coming at me, doing a technique of his own, would 30% of my power be enough? Could I effort to push someone, even if it's redirecting an arm with an unstable posture where one of my feet is off the ground? Honestly, I am not sure, but I think I'd still choose a stable stancefirst. That's the approach in karate in general, as far as I've been taught. Also in the kind of situation I described, my opponent may not be looking for clues of what kind of technique I am going to use, so I may not need to worry about telegraphing much.

    The situation would be a bit different in a tournament though or if I was practicing with a focus af creating opportunities to strike, etc. as you mentined. But as I wrote before, since I am not training for tournaments, I'd still chose to first step, then strike/push whatever. For me personally, I think it may be more practical. I may be wrong, but that's the solution that makes the most sense to me.
     
  6. Nachi

    Nachi Valued Member Supporter

    Yes, you are right, but although I don'T know that much about Tajii schools in general, that is not what I would expect to see in the majority of them. If you want to learn strikes, and can find a Taiji school like that, that would be good. But I would still expect there to be less focus on these combos and striking techniques in general compared to other striking arts. But I may be wrong there as I don't know what the Taiji curriculum of such school would look like after those 3/5 months passed.

    Thanks, I've not heard of the Thunder style before :)
     
  7. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    IMO, 30% power should be enough for "set up". Here is a short clip for elbow joint pushing.

    [​IMG]
     
  8. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    I was with Adam Hsu in that Chen village Taiji trip. All the videos that he has about Chen Thunder style was recorded by my video camera.
     
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  9. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    Nor I. Your expectations are correct! Most folks aren't doing any basics so overtly martial basic practices are "somewhat scarce".
    You're right.It's always about time spent doing what.

    TC people must spend time on other things besides striking practice,but as in any of the CMA "boxing" systems it's historically been an important part of the whole.Those who enter the various tourneys -kickbox,san da,etc- practice striking. Same as 150 years ago.

    However Mr. W's teacher's TC delights in the shuai jiao apps so may be an exception to that "importance" statement.

    Mr. W showed combos don't only mean striking -you've got downing,sweeping etc combos like that in your form although some are muted in appearance.

    As to the 3-5 mos.
    In Hsu's school those who wished to pursue TC function could. "Regular" curriculum of form,ph and such is or was at the time along the lines of schools generally.

    The purpose was so people had an understanding of and ability in basics rather than immediately being thrown in to learning complex and physically demanding (esp on legs!) movement via form. I imagine your previous training enabled you when first learning to place your foot or arm more accurately than those without any movement/athletic training.
     
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  10. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    That's cool! I still like reading or hearing him.
     
  11. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Many Adam Hsu's opinions that I like are:

    - The term "internal" was created by some non-CMA scholar 300 years ago to feel "superior" among others ("internal" is high level. external is low level).
    - One should grow tall and not grow fat. Repeating grade school 5 times won't get you a PhD degree.
    - Every MA skill should have beginner training method, intermediate training method, and advance training method.
    - If you have 2 MA teachers, teacher 1 says, "If you do this for N years, you will have it". Teacher 2 says, "If you do the following drills for 6 months, you will have it." Go to teacher 2 is your better choice.
    - When you punch, it's wrong to move your back leg when you are in the beginner training stage (static punch). It's wrong not to move your back leg when you are in the intermediate or advance training stage (dynamic punch).
    - Body method (see most the body move and don't see much the arms move) is what we all want to develop through MA training.
    - ...
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2022
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  12. Nachi

    Nachi Valued Member Supporter

    Yes, I wrote mostly about striking, because of the first post that I replied to about the goal being learning striking combinations. Because yes, in the form I've learner, I think there are probably more of sweeps, throws, etc. than strikes per se.

    In my school, both main teachers know the applications and would demonstrate them when explaining some movements, but in the general classes, we don't practice them. On one hand it is a pity, but on the other, well, I kind of understand. The majority of people who come to classes don't really seem to be coming to learn how to sweep and strike. And to teach this properly, the classes would have to be quite different from the start. Even now the beginners would spend a couple of months only learning how to stand and how to do silk reeling. Adding several more months of learning how to strike etc. before actually starting to learn the form, ehich probably is what people came for... I am not sure if the students would appreciate that. It would be great and the teaching would be thorough, but.. definitely not suited for everyone, especially the older people or those with health issues.

    Indeed, me doing karate or maybe generally being active definitely helped in grasping things faster. Maybe also being used to learn with similar type of instructions. Doing karate is also the reason why I am not too worried about not practicing the strikes and applications that much in Taiji. Of course, I am happy ad hope I'll learn the applications to the forms (it was the plan to have a class for that, but covid), but I don't mind that being just a side thing to mostly working on the forms.

    I haven't heard of Adam Hsu before, but I'll look some of his videos up :)
     
  13. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    Here is one 忽雷架 Chen Thunder style clip that I had recorded.

     
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  14. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    i don't think i've seen tai chi quite like that before, it was quite funky
     
  15. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member


    Hey, you should have a read of Scott Park Phillips book, Possible Origins.
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2022
  16. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member



    there is no meaning to internal the way you use it, because, I need to assume it has no meaning in your training.
    on the other hand, It has meaning and exists in my training and it has to, to be able to know the difference between internal work (when I believe I'm doing it) and just throwing a kick.
    doing movements, any movements, in utilising "mindful" ways is a training methodology ONLY

    differences can exists on different levels - stylistic external levels.
    difference of emphasis, difference of training methods.

    a karate kick has differences to an MT kick and we can add tcc kick to that, stylistically.

    when you land on the word internal - the kick, that external thing - that object you see and look at, is not it.
    so you see, how can a question that makes no sense to begin with, be answered?
     
  17. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member


    well think about it.. in the other thread we were discussing the benefits of meditation and spiritual practices.
    now mix exercise in there and a dash of heightened proprioception.

    come on, that's going to make you feel like superman ! :)
     
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  18. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    The basic concept and idea presented in the book Possible Origins, I thought was very interesting.
    I wanted to briefly explain as it give a whole new perspective on the debate.

    For my own part I tend to trot out a certain line on the subject. What is difficult is crossing the historical and cultural change.

    It's important to remember that uses of the terms can be plural and we don't need internal and external to be hard and fast terminology in MA and only provide one perspective or one categorical description.

    The distinction proposed, was of its time and place, coming from a tradition of spiritual cultivation.
    In many ways what the general consensus of what is internal training nowadays was indeed what was previously 'external'..

    More specifically, putting mind and awareness into body, working directly on it with and through mental intent.
    So then where does that leave internal in this distinction. Well this distinction is not a mental physical one as such - which is the simplest form of internal/ external distinction.

    This takes the whole canon of internal work and cultivation, so to speak, and distinguishes two approaches that are quite different - from that base.
    Both of which integrate into martial training. One was the internal elixir (or golden elixir)- and the closest thing I can think of that illustrates it from the plethora of Chinese style/systems I've seen is basically 'spirit boxing' which is moving towards transcendental and out of body practices.

    Keeping it basic; in cultivation practices one of the outcomes is the rising of 'shen' (spirit).
    In this training model we can think of that (our shen) as our spatial awareness - IOW not something within.
    We are placing our mind, awareness and feeling outside our body.

    Like any unused muscle or connection this requires to be strengthened first.
    Think of yourself inside an egg, and between you and the shell is where you want your mind to reside.
    And as if controlling a puppet, the shen/mind then directs and controls the action of the body from a spatial awareness.

    It's very esoteric basically. I'm not a practitioner of it by any means but I've played around with the concepts and practices a little. Mostly for a bit of fun and curiosity. I think there something to Scotts theory and the book(s) make for a fascinating read.

    A further strong theme of the book is that a lot of this was part and parcel of Chinese Theatre/ Opera training.
    Well worth a look for any Chinese martial arts historians out there. Given the authors background perhaps he advocates the theatre angle with a certain fervour shall we say. But as it's an angle that has been very overlooked I think it's fair enough and an understandable bias perhaps.

    Here's the amazon link for anyone interested - free on kindle it looks like
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Possible-Origins-Cultural-History-Religion-ebook/dp/B01HLGKQMM/ref=sr_1_1?crid=24C6R913GG437&keywords=possible+origins&qid=1643987083&sprefix=possible+origins,aps,79&sr=8-1

    the other book looking more specifically at taiji and bagua
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Tai-Chi-Ba...2f155&pd_rd_wg=1vTDk&pd_rd_i=B07R6V8984&psc=1


    The Immortal & the Angry Baby…

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    Sage Lin claimed that he learned the Golden Elixir in secret night-visits from the Immortal Zhang Sanfeng. The Immortal was a theatrical character, known for defeating twenty-four palace guards with thirty-two moves while snoring like an earthquake and smelling of booze and vomit—thirty-two moves that General Qi wrote about and later became known as Tai Chi!
    The dragon-killer Nezha cut his flesh from his bones and returned it to his parents. He was done. Or so it seemed, until Nezha’s secret father Taiyi descended from the sky and gave him a new body made of lotus flowers and the Golden Elixir—making him invincible.

    Nezha was China’s most important hero-god—so important that caravan guards and rebels nicknamed Beijing “Nezha City.” In 1900 thousands of Boxers possessed by Nezha died fighting foreign guns. Blamed and ridiculed for this failure, martial artists who practiced the dance of Nezha hid their history and gave their art a new name—Baguazhang!
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    Completely new and meticulously researched, Tai Chi, Baguazhang and the Golden Elixir erases a hundred and twenty years of confusion and error to reveal the specific theatrical and religious origins of Chinese Internal Martial Arts.
     
  19. Botta Dritta

    Botta Dritta Valued Member

    This mirrored my own personal experience. Originally I started Yang to fix a problem with my fencing, then I stuck with Chen for 4-5 years while contemporaneously doing boxing, the applications were added in ad-hoc during the lessons, but were never the main focus of the class. If i didn't have Boxing as a more overt martial outlet, I might have struggled to maintain an interest in TCC. Instead TCC was an interesting aside providing a different outlet and scratching a different itch.

    What was interesting to me is that both forms and applications were often expressed somewhat differently by different instructors. An application that would be joint lock for one instructor would be taught as strike by another instructor. Initially this was a bit annoying, but after a while it made sense. Less of a toolbox of applications and more of a 'physical approach'.
     
  20. El Medico

    El Medico Valued Member

    If I had joined any of the other TC teachers in town than my 1st teacher I wouldn't have been around for my later teachers. A toast to "overt martiality"!
    From the Silat - "one motion means many motions".
    This is true for many CMAs.

    Unsure of meaning of "physical approach".
     

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