What happened to the likes of Georg Hackenschmidt and Frank Gotch?

Discussion in 'Wrestling' started by ronki23, Feb 13, 2012.

  1. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Hogan clearly has some ability beyond size - you cannot last long in the industry on just looks - but he was exceptionally limited IMO and was always more of a personality than an actual wrestler.

    I think many people forget how important he was to the game and that diminishes his star unfairly - comparing him to Curt Hennig, Ricky Steamboat or Barry Windham is apples to oranges. Hogan was the flagbearer for modern wrestling as we know it - good or bad

    I agree, Danny Hodge was a tough customer too!

    The most feared wrestler in terms of his potential in recent years is Haku/Meng - even Harley Race would bow to him! Bad News Allen was another, who has the honor of being one of the few men to front Andre the Giant

    From the UK guys like Dave Finlay and Pat Roach were legit tough, but the most suprising character in terms of reputation was Les Kellet. Les is one of my all time favourite performers, but was feared by most as the hardest man in UK wrestling

  2. callsignfuzzy

    callsignfuzzy Is not a number!

    And to add to the bit about Japanese pro wrestling, it's treated as legit sport. Unlike in the US, I can't ever recall Japanese pro-wrestlers "calling their spots" (telling each other what moves to do). They're also "stiffer" with their shots, making a significant amount of contact. Many mid-match sequences seem to be about the same intensity as a grappling or MMA sparring session. The comparison I use to illustrate the differences is that when American wrestlers die young, it's usually the result of drugs; when Japanese wrestlers die young, it's usually a brain hemorage (Plum Mariko, Mitsuharu Misawa, and Shinya Hashimoto to name a few).

    As another illustration, check out Masahiro Chono's "Yakuza Kick" at about 1:09-
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9W8YxlhzI8"]The Top Ten Moves of Masahiro Chono - YouTube[/ame]

    He pretty much stiffs the guy in the face. Compare that to Kevin Nash's "big boot"-

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqWLcviRKt8"]Diesel Kevin Nash - Big Boot - YouTube[/ame]

    The wrestler performing the move simply lifts his leg while the other guy takes a bump and usually throws up a hand to cushion any possible impact.

    A number of pro wrestling styles came out of Japan. The "Strong Style" that Inoki brought to the table was pretty realistic and emphasized strikes and submissions; guys from his camp would go on to develop the "shoot style" of modern pro wrestling that, in turn, would evolve into Pancrase, Shooto, and Rings. "Kings Road" was another style that emphasized power moves and led to lots of guys getting dropped on their heads. "Garbage wrestling" is known in the West as "hardcore wrestling" and utilizes things like chairs, tables, and barbed wire. "Lucharesu" is probably my favorite to watch because it combines the flowing acrobatics of Mexican Lucha Libre with the stiff strikes and power moves of both Strong Style and King's Road.

    I stopped following the Puroresu scene about 2005ish, so some of this info may be out of date.
  3. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Part 2 of the genius that was Les

  4. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    and part 3

  5. ronki23

    ronki23 Valued Member

    I'm surprised the Rick 'Nature Boy' Flair was an amateur wrestler when he was younger lol.

    Before this thread, I put legit pro wrestlers in a demotivational poster I made:

    Apart from the above (official MMA experience), you've got guys who've won in other disciplines:

    Shad,Santino,Kurt Angle,Shelton Benjamin,Jack Swagger,Iron Shiek (how far did he get in Olympic trials? All I know he won AAU in wrestling), Vladamir Kozlov,Stu Hart,Owen Hart, Bret Hart, Allen Coage, Dolph Ziggler,Samoa Joe, Randy Orton and the Rock (both wrestled), Pope,Wade Barrett

    and people who've trained in martial arts/had real life fights

    RVD,Goldberg/Undertaker and Kane (MMA training) , Kellet/Race/Booker T/Jericho/Haku-Meng/Finlay (all 6 of these guys won fights/shoots in real life), Batista and CM Punk (both are up for MMA/allegedley trained in martial arts but I haven't seen any official sources)

    and people call pro wrestlers 'pussies' :/

    Attached Files:

  6. callsignfuzzy

    callsignfuzzy Is not a number!

    Flair wasn't a wrestler, but a football player. However, he was trained in the basics of amateur wrestling while training for pro wrestling at Vern Gagne's gym. Apparently notable shooter Billy Robinson made an appearance there, too, as Flair relates a story of him challenging Hossein Khosrow Vaziri ("The Iron Sheik") where Robinson used some foul play in the form of a knee drop to the hip to injure Vaziri.

    I'm also not sure if The Rock had an amateur wrestling background. It's been probably a decade or more since I read his autobiography, but all I found on Wikipedia was a football career. He certainly doesn't move like most amateur wrestlers do.
  7. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    CM Punk trains under the Gracies in BJJ - he is in the latest "breakdown"

    The Rock was only a football athlete, but his family background helped him. One of my colleagues knew him from his time with Calgary Stampeders on the reserve bench
  8. ronki23

    ronki23 Valued Member

    In addition to playing football at Freedom High School, he also was a member of the high school's track and field and wrestling teams. Wikipedia


    CM Punk BJJ! I guess his Muay Thai is real then. A shame WWE slowed down his push because I HATE this era


    I'd put Daniel Bryan and CM Punk in the same context as Undertaker,Goldberg and Kane: they train MMA but don't fight

    Batista is at the bottom because he was beaten up by Booker T lol. Booker T has my respect-he grew up on the streets.
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2012
  9. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Can I just add how much I LOVE having fellow marks to talk to!
  10. ronki23

    ronki23 Valued Member

    I forgot to add my ultimate Motivational Poster

    He was UFC AND WWE champion-not that Shamrock is bad but this guy is way better. Plus I like the 'stache

    How do you become like those in the 1800s-1900s? Wouldn't you overtrain doing both weight training AND martial arts AND endurance for martial arts? What do you do?

    Rippetoes/ All Pro to add size and strength and train 2-3x a week in martial arts and 2-3x a week cardio for martial arts?

    I'm studying at the moment so can't do everything- 9 out of 12 months a year i'm training 2-4x a week in Judo/Wrestling/Jiu Jitsu and in the summer (3 months) I follow weight training programs. Been doing this since 2010.
    It must get even harder if there are fights coming up as you need to train martial arts more so does that mean you have to cut out weights/cardio?

    In my beginner days (summer in 2007 and 2008) I did weights 3-4x weekly AND martial arts 2x a week- a lot of the times postworkout. Not that I didn't improve but I felt I improved more if I spent more time on one thing as my MIND was in it. I improved a bit in 2009 but tried out HIT (Mentzer) and martial arts-wasn't too bad but when I started competitions I was still struggling at local novice level at kickboxing (I did have braces at the time/had to wear a faceshield-I firmly believe in fighting without for better credibility).

    Attached Files:

  11. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Did you look at the Karl Gotch training video I posted earlier? That might offer you what you are looking for
  12. shootodog

    shootodog restless native

    errrr this guy?


    catch as catch can former pro japan wrestler?
  13. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Karl Gotch - one man not to be trifled with. On a whole other level of conditioning. If I had my life to live over... I'd have gone to train with him. Not that I have the build for it... I don't but man his drills are killers.
  14. ronki23

    ronki23 Valued Member

    Gracie Hunter isn't it? Check my demotivational poster ^^

    Do you have any active people with size,strength AND skill in MMA? I know Lesnar is quite strong in that he benches and squats trees-Angle says this about him

    How strong were Lashley and Overeem- the only strength feat for Reem is this (he was hitting tyres with that Sledgehammer)


    How strong was Carwin?


    Any more people like this?

    I was going to say Rampage and Mike Tyson but I don't know their lifting stats- they have fantastic physiques and I assume they're pretty strong
  15. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Did you not see the vid I posted?
    He lifts 500kg or something up some stairs.
  16. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    Brock benching 600 and squatting over 1000....i call b*ll on this, the raw powerlifting record (without a suit) is 940 pounds, the raw bench around 640, no fing way brock is getting even close to those numbers, in fack the raw record a few years ago was 900, you need to check your sources more

    And judging guys strength on how they look...please that shows just how little you know about real strength Big Z is probably the strongest man of the last 50 years and he looks nothing like them, same for Cyer already talked about, stop looking at guys in photos (thats just wrong on so many levels) and start actually training for strength
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2012
  17. ronki23

    ronki23 Valued Member

    Funnily enough I was judging MMA fighters and Amateur Wrestlers on how they look-true to form they are pretty damn strong.

    You can also look at Big Ron and he can hang with many powerlifters, as could Johnnie Jackson, Stan Efferding and Ben White.

    You get strong through myofibrillar hypertrophy and bigger through sarcoplasmic hypertrophy so stronger=bigger and vice versa.

    It's just bodybuilders use higher volume/work on smaller bodyparts too so can't train as hard for strength specifically (much more myofibrillar than sarcoplasmic/muscles don't GROW as well in size if only myofibrillar & high intensity and low reps is done compared to myofibrillar-sarcoplasmic/ medium intensity and medium reps~sarcoplasmic only maximises muscle at it's current max potential and is more endurance-based is found through high reps and low intensity-the problem is the muscle needs to be bigger to benefit/one to notice)

    Arnold,Mike & Ray Mentzer, Lou Ferrigno,and Franco also did well in powerlifting AND strongman. Back then they hardly used wraps,suits,etc.

    If you read the title, i'm interested in people with the complete package:

    *physique (mass and definition)
    *fighting ability

    ^ very few people do this in the last few decades but now we've got Reem, Lashley,Carwin and Lesnar. Also, I never said Lesnar could do all that, KURT ANGLE did.
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2012
  18. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    I never called bull on you I called bull on that article and on anyone who believes it
    Arnold never did strongman, feringo as far as I know never did powerlifting at any real level, only one I know who did all three was Franco (although cant remember him doing strongman), maybe you could post the others records for us to judge?

    And only a handful of those you listed had the complete package as you call it and none in the past 50 years …..even the old day people gotch etc were not strong compared to real powerlfiters or strongmen (hack was but others…sandow maybe but he was a champion swiss belt wrestler hardly a well known sport), apart from Franco none of those in the last 50 years had all three, most only one, carwin, overeem or lashley were not strong compared to powerlifters or present day strongmen, none of the strongman or powerlifters had fight records that was any good
    And those that were any good at strongman and fighting usually did one then the other (I don’t think franco competed in powerlifting until after his boxing career was over but I could be wrong) likewise mariaz only competed in MMA after he retired from strongman

    Are some wrestlers strong, well lets see they are top level athletes and spend their whole lives throwing around other men so yes they are, are they strong compared to powerlifters or strongman, no not really
  19. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    There is always a trade off between strength and skill, and as you have identifed Hack was really the only wrestler of note that was reputed as a strongman - but as a wrestler he was limited.

    Great Gama was one of the exceptions IMO, in so far as he was legendary for some of his feats of strength endurance. Even "The Mighty Atom" was in awe of Gama. Even a casual glance at his physique shows a man that could probably wreck you in short order


    In recent times I am suprised no-one has mentioned "Alexander the Great" as a man who has an imposing presence AND skills

  20. icefield

    icefield Valued Member

    Hack was a very good wrestler, both amatuer and professional, anyone taking the greco world title and beating guys alot bigger than him in pro wrestling can hardly be called untechnical or not a shooter

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