What happened to the likes of Georg Hackenschmidt and Frank Gotch?

Discussion in 'Wrestling' started by ronki23, Feb 13, 2012.

  1. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Totally serious...


  2. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Hahaha...none of those can fight mate...Brock Lesnar would beat all three of those one after the other.
    Hell I'd beat Mariusz by running round the ring for 3 minutes and then pushing him over when he goes all red.
    What about Alastair Overeem?
    Big and strong and a hell of a fighter. Not sure what he lifts compared to proper lifters but he's clearly no stranger to the weights.
    The guy's a specimen and no mistake.



    Well...he could probably carry my luggage up the stairs.

    Last edited: Feb 14, 2012
  3. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny


    Edit: PA Smith beat me to the punch.
  4. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    While I think this is an odd thread I think Ubereem takes this mantle.

    K1 Champion, MMA champion and won the european ADCC trials (not a top grappling achievement but no slouch either). His fighting credentials are hard to match at heavyweight.
    Physique not far off a body builder (not that I know much about that but I bet if he cut weight he'd look the part).
    The only thing lacking might be his strength compared the strongmen of old (and certainly is lacking compared to the dedicated strongmen of today).
  5. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    I don't doubt Overeem's strength, but for some reason I can't quite put into words, I find Lesnar's physique to be more impressive/intimidating.
  6. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I know what you mean.
    I think it may be that Overeem is more rangy and lean and has really had to bulk up. Lesnar is more naturally solid (and heavier but shorter) and carries it with more "attitude" (even though 'reem kicked his ass/liver when push came to shove).

    Although Ariany Celeste seems pretty impressed. :)

  7. ronki23

    ronki23 Valued Member

    Just saying that Ronnie and Mariusz have bodybuilder physiques and are champion powerlifters-those are 2 things but I want a combination of size,strength and skill like these guys from the late 1800s

    As of 1981, Van Damme's record is 20-2-0 AND he was Mr.Belgium in bodybuilding
  8. ronki23

    ronki23 Valued Member

    DAMN I wish Arianny Celeste looked at me like that

    A day after Lesnar lost to Overeem I stated that Reem though Brock shouldn't retire/I personally said he's no joke as he lost to a K1 champion AND ADCC winner and has beaten Herring,Couture,Carwin and Mir- apparently Herring's a can and Couture was old while Brock was lucky to beat Carwin (due to reset) and losing to Overeem is a REASON to retire because Brock 'turtles up' too much.

    Naturally a BJJ person said this-Herring won 28 out of 43 fights so I wouldn't call him a can and Carwin didn't get a 'reset'-he backed off due to fatigue. I don't like Mir so didn't comment on him.
    ^my response was that as long as I won my MMA fights/lost to people good at it I wouldn't give a damn over what others thought.

    But Arianny Celeste- giggity giggity gigg it ty
  9. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Karl Gotch to me epitomised the "functional form" or a wrestler/combat athlete. He decried bodybuilder muscles for their own sake, preferring what he called "conditioned" rather than "counterfeit" muscles


    Older and still looking dangerous!


    Even right into his 70's he was still a beast!


    Here is Karl training some Pro's in Japan - look at 0:58 for an awesome single leg counter done in a "worked" setting


    And finally, some footage of Karl and student training before Furey even dreamt of Combat Conditioning

    Last edited: Feb 15, 2012
  10. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Yet more Gotch awesomeness!!


    related footage of Inoki training

  11. ronki23

    ronki23 Valued Member

  12. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Inoki was possibly capable of shooting - he was undeniably fit, and Gotch did train him. However, Gotch was very critical of him personally and like so many others who crossed Gotch he never spoke well of him afterwards.

    Inoki was a shameless self-promoter and borderline crook, but certainly put wresting on the map. FWIW I believe the match with Ali was a 50/50 shoot - work. In reality I think Ali would have lost, and had they not banned Inoki from grabbing Ali (hence the bizarre leg kicking) it would have been obvious
  13. ronki23

    ronki23 Valued Member

    From what i'm reading with Assirati,Gotchs,Hackendschmidt,Gama,Singh- their pro wrestling matches seem to be described as real as they used to get broken or bleed? Was pro wrestling real before in the carnival days?

    Going back to Inoki, is Japanese Pro Wrestling real? Most of them seem were/go to MMA?
    ^ Off topic, I hear Hogan learned Catch before for a year/ had tussles in real life (except getting his leg broken and choking out Richard Beltzer). I don't know what happened to Hogan after WCW NWO but he should've retired because he's not even a 10th as popular as he used to be

    Also, Ad Santel is another person to add to this list-he was a Catch Wrestler

  14. ronki23

    ronki23 Valued Member

    This is what wikipedia says about Inoki

    It's not very convincing he was good at MMA-he may have trained in wrestling,judo and karate but I don't know his official fight record
  15. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    The last reputed legit wrestling match was Ed Lewis vs Joe Stecher, (although there had been exhibition matches or "works" for years prior). It was a match that lasted 5 and 1/2 hrs and was a draw at the end. It was spectacularly uneventful in terms of action and the audience were bored stiff.

    Lewis was one the "gold dust trio" (Toots Mondt and Billy Sandow being the other two) who effectively started the pro-wrestling turn toward works being the norm. Mondt was a student of Martin Burns (who actually learned his stuff initially by the mail order course Burns ran as an example that some people CAN learn from books!)

    Even back in these days though, the expectation was that the matches were supposed to LOOK legit, even if the outcomes were predetermined. To that end wrestlers had to be able to, you know, actually WRESTLE

    Japan style wrestling comes in many forms, but the "worked shoot: format was the most popular - that is a leftover from Gotch and the like who worked "stiff" in the ring. Johnny Valentine (Greg "the Hammer" Valentin's dad) was a member of the stiff worker school. If you could not fight for real you did not last long back in the early days.

    It is probably best to say pro-wresting in Japan tends to be FIXED rather than FAKE - certainly 90% of martial artists could not hack it in the ring.

    Hogan was never a wrestler or repute or ability (even though he was taught by Hiro Matsuda) but did earn his stripes by having his leg broken and returning to train when it had healed. Hogan as a wrestler was a spectacle - in reality he did not know a wristlock from a wris****ch, although his Japanese matches show more than the four moves he did in American rings
  16. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Exhibition match in grappling between Renzo and Inoki - a work, but Renzo said it was a honor to be in the ring with Inoki, which may be a clue as to how respected he was in the industry

  17. ronki23

    ronki23 Valued Member

    ?? I assume you mean that Japanese pro wrestling was actual wrestling that requires conditioning and tolerance that you find in real wrestling like Freestyle,Greco and Catch (don't know how tough college wrestling is- is there a difference between college and freestyle? Both seem to allow leg takedowns)

    As for Hogan, I can't find confirmed sources he learned catch- I asked looong time ago on yahoo! answers how certain pro wrestlers would do in MMA and was told he learned catch-another website talks of Hulk's experience with MMA. I'm sure if he learned catch he'd know wristlocks from wris****ches lol.

    Also, was Linda the reason Hulk kept on wrestling post NWO feud? Around the 90's he was at the top of his game but no everyone goes 'lol Hulk Hogan' when you mention him
  18. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Trust me on this - Hogan can't really wrestle a lick, but he is a big guy so gets away with it. His repotoire consists of loose punches, weak chops, rakes, big boot, clotheslines and legdrops with bodyslams.

    Oh, and "Hulking up"

    That's about it
  19. callsignfuzzy

    callsignfuzzy Is not a number!

    Hogan had a degree of wrestling skills, you just never see it in his performances in the US. My understanding of wrestling training in the West, at least from the autobios of Hogan, Flair, Bret Hart, and so on, is that wrestling was emphasized first, before anything else. Flair claims he didn't know wrestling was worked until he was about to walk through the curtain for his first match and was told it was going to a draw.

    Hogan in Japan:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gA_U3NIs24"]hulk hogan vs andre the giant in japan (njpw) - YouTube[/ame]

    He hits a double wristlock (ude-garami/kimura) at 1:50, and looks for a half-Nelson at about 2:40. I've also seen him use a knee scissors ("calf slicer") and a step-over arm bar in some of his Japanese matches. Plus, there's this:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7n_SHrK408"]HULK HOGAN,RICHARD BELZER, MR T- INFAMOUS ACCIDENT LIVE ON TV 1984 - YouTube[/ame]

    As long as we're on this thread, has anyone mentioned Danny Hodge?


    He could reportedly break the handle on a pair of pliers with his grip strength.

    ronki23, you asked me earlier if big muscles = blowing up quickly. Honestly, I haven't had time to do the research on that. I do know, however, that endurance athletes are not build like strength athletes. For pro fighters, be they boxers, wrestlers, or MMA fighters, endurance is more important than raw strength. See Pudz turn almost purple after getting clinched by a much weaker Tim Sylvia for just a few minutes. I have access to lots of peer-reviewed articles at the moment, so I'll try to get a more scientific answer to you within the next week.
  20. ronki23

    ronki23 Valued Member


    I want to be like these kind of people-do we have any people that succeed in strength,skill and size and (not necessary to me) are pro wrestlers.

    I enjoy bodybuilding but I want to be strong too
    I want to look good
    I want to back it all up with skills in martial arts

    So far we have Lesnar and Franco and (not confirmed powerlifting stats) Overeem and Lashley (i'm sure Lesnar/Reem/Lashley could at least bench 400- not sure about lower body but I heard Lesnar can squat trees?)

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