Anyone who has seen the "yearbook" photos in the back of the Kuk Sool "Red Book" knows that back in the early days of its introduction to the United States, Kuk Sool had more adult than youth practitioners. What happened? How can we get them back in the dojang? Or is it too late? Children may be the life-blood of the modern martial arts school, but adults are necessary too. Their presence can help stave off the effects of McDojoism and provide role models to the younger students other than their instructor. The seniors that I have looked up to the most were in their fifties and sixties, because they were living proof of the sort of quality of life I hoped to have when I reached their age. Hasn't anyone ever heard the saying, "It takes a village to raise a child"?
I'm not all that familiar with the MA schools in your area, LX, but many of the kuk-sool dojangs I know of, DO have a healthy supply of adults on hand. Not to *kill* the thread too early, but even a 1/3 ratio is good IME. Please don't come back and tell me your school is more like a 1/10 ratio, as that would really be a pity. :cry:
I have been in and out of a number of schools, various styles, and visited many more during their "adult" classes. Either there is only a handful of adults, or they let the younger students train during those times because no adults show up. I am not saying they don't exist, but I myself have yet to find a school with even 10% adults. I don't have any statistics I can point to, yet I feel that the demographics have shifted over the years.
alot of the adults you see in the old books began training in kuk sul at a young age. most kept with it because the hogukmuye movement was strong. kuk sul was a powerful name. masters from yudo, tae kwon do, and hapkido flocked to busan to train and use the name on the banners of their schools. after chung hee pak's presidency ended, so did the support of a national martial art. this meant that money had to be found elsewhere. those that couldnt stay stateside ended doing something different. what im trying to get across is that the opportunity to run a successful school was almost guaranteed in the seventies and eighties. it was a golden opportunity for kids that grew up poor to make a living. very few were actually decent teachers. what we see now is natural. i dont see my teacher's philosophy of martial arts as one that an adult can easily pick up(training the body through forms, basics, proper foot alignment in techniques, etc) nor does he see martial arts as simply effective self defense. that alone would push many adults away. the seventies and eighties are over. all the claims people made to make a buck were shot down by conditioned wrestlers. personally, i think the best way to get adult students is to raise them from early on.
:happy: You crack me up, SsangKall! But there's got to be a better way to garner adult students other than raising them up from existing students who are kiddie-aged. ROFL Let's face it, the mass media has a lot to do with people's perception of things. The 1970's & 80's were a boom time for MA simply because those decades were riding on the coattails of MA phenomena such as Bruce Lee (i.e. his debut into the mainstream awareness), a plethora of chopsocky films coming out of Hong Kong (e.g. Shaw Bros. Studio productions), and the "Kung Fu" TV series (featuring David Carradine & Keye Luke). Since most of those influences center on TMA, it's no wonder that TMA flourished as a result. Nowadays, the MA influence in popular culture comes from things such as The Matrix, ESPN's portrayal of octagon bouts (i.e. UFC), MA-themed manga cartoons & video games, etc. This has led to MMA being favored by the general public, as well as certain catchwords/buzzwords (such as Krav Maga, BJJ, etc.) being used to epitomize what MA are all about (unfortunately, teaching a MA philosophy along with the physical side of MA is considered hokey these days, at best; mostly, just plain ludicrous). Additionally IMO, modern-day stunt work also plays a role in shaping this new paradigm, as this field is largely influenced by MA or MA theatrics (think of Jackie Chan or Sammo Hung) in ways that it wasn't when the movie industry created the job of "stuntman'' (compare the athleticism of today with what passed as 'good work' back in the days of making the first westerns - a payday genre for early Hollywood). So the problem you face is to either accept a low enrollment of adults by not wavering from the traditional way of presenting TMA, or you can invent new ways to deal with this dilemma, while still maintaining the integrity of teaching in the traditional manner. My suggestion is to simply add a class to the weekly schedule that focuses on the practical applications of some of the things which would be taught using the *standard* curriculum. This should include the ability to "pressure-test" the various skills, identifying how much *variance* must be culled in getting the stuff to actually work (without sacrificing too much of the original concept), and therefore borrowing from the likes of MMA or any other method, would be left up to the sole discretion of the instructor of said class.
will do. the op brought up seniors in the dojang. where DID they go? were the eightees easier on the wallet?
Well said Unk! Another problem of course is the dumbing down of everything nowadays. Computers get ugraded every 5 minutes, along with electronic game boards and mobile phones, etc. Everybody wants everything yesterday. Putting the time in just doesn't hack it for the majority of people in these modern times. And so, the TMA's either adapt, or those that don't will most likely gradually die out!
having seen the title of this thread, I wondered about the ages of my own students. We are one of "those" schools who believes that it is a good idea to start 'em young and therefore run a "little ninjas" class (yes I know that ninjas aren't Korean but it is good for publicity and I don't apologise for that!) to attract 4 to 6 year olds. In fact I have found that our LN's often out perform some of the older kids. However, as we do stretch our age range a bit compared to some schools you would expect us to have a low % of adults. So I had a look and was pleased to realise that amongst our currently 122 active (paying and training) students we have 29 aged over 17 and the vast majority of these are over 25's. Thats close to 25%. For those who dont think that 4 to 6 year olds can possibly be considered MA practitioners then take out those 33 LN's and we have around 33% adults. So, Lurker X...it can be done and IS being done! Just depends where you look! I do agree with your idea that it takes a village to raise a child, but of course the village would contain kids as well as OAPs! I am pleased to report however, that we also have a number of 40 and 50+ students including one who is even older than myself (tho only by around 14 days!) So..where did the adults go? Nowhere! They are still there waiting to find the right class for them!
Kiwest: Perhaps the demographic mix you have experienced at your school is unique to your region. I have noticed when watching Youtube videos of Kuk Sool demonstrations by British participants that there are a lot of older teens and adults, which I applaud. However, I personally would never teach students as young as three or four. Ask any of the Korean masters when they began their training, and the earliest you will usually hear is nine or ten. I recognize the additional income opportunity, but I have seen such classes being little more than the tumbling classes offered to tots by city-run community centers, and often abused by parents as an alternative to day-care, where they drop their kids off, and don't return for several hours, leaving one to either let them loiter outside the school or include them in other classes after theirs. Perhaps you run a tight ship. I would settle for 25-33% adult enrollment, but would prefer at least 40%. I would have to agree with Unknown that the 80's were the heyday for adult involvement in Kuk Sool and other martial arts. The irony is that even if there are still a lot of adults interested in martial arts and self-defense education, they have probably identified MMA training, and specifically BJJ, as the way to go, but most of them probably couldn't cut it, whereas if they were willing to go with a style like Kuk Sool/Hapkido, they could actually do it and eventually be able to defend themselves and get into the shape they want to be. You know what we really need? We need a bad-ass Kuk Sool practitioner to break into Hollywood as an action star like Jason Statham, and then tout the merits of our style in interviews, like what Steven Seagal did for Aikido. Then all of our schools would see a boost in enrollment.
FWIW, I thanked your post (#10), L-X, but c'mon, you know it's a pipe dream, right? (i.e. the bit about a break-through MA film star who does kuk-sool)
Ha! I hate to break it to you, SsangKall, but that "pretty boy" has dabbled in too many different things to do your team any good (my guess is that it was probably more convenient for him to get a handle on joint-locks via KJMS than it was with HKD or chin-na, and that's the only reason he trained with you guys). FWIW, he holds higher ranking in several other arts and only holds a 1st dan in KJMS, so I doubt his allegiance to popularize the glory of "kuk-sool" would be all that great. Besides, he already had decided to learn traditional weaponry by pursuing JAPANESE archery and all the other stuff found in beishaolin, and being a film star, he could always work with wires instead of learning proper acrobatics. Anyway, I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for him to send tons of new practitioners to your doorstep. :banana: I do thank you for bringing him & his connection to a kuk-sool variant to my attention, however, as I was unaware of it until you did. :bow1:
I hate to admit it, but the media holds sway over almost everything we have, do, watch, wear, and eat! As mma grows more popular traditional martial arts schools have become more so than in the past, a training facility for children, more than adults. 75% of my students are children ages six to fourteen with only 25% of my student base being high school age to adult. This is a common trend with most schools that have a sizable enrollment. I have found this trend to be the same, perhaps even more so in Korea.
LIke IHS you mean? I believe that his "official history says he began training at the age of 5. And I have seen countless korean kids aged 4 to 6 performing in KSW demos. Several hours??? YMBJ! Our "ninjas" classes are 40 minutes. Their attention span would not allow for any longer. I also insist that parents stay with the kids. This is both for child protection reasons and because I get them to take part in the lessons and join in for part of them, partnering their own kids as I don't allow the youngest schildren to do techniques on each other. It also means that the parents are able to help the child practise at home (and sometimes they get keen enough to join up themselves) However the kids do learn the regular syllabus. We just break it down into much smaller "pieces". The result is that they turn into great little students and are usually better than their older classmates when they eventual join the regular junior classes at around 7 years of age. However, I can understand instructors' reluctance to teach young children. It certainly isn't for everyone! When I first ran a school I had a minimum age of 8 years, but have been convinced to reduce this gradually as the years have passed. Maybe I have just got more tolerant to the kids or have built up more skill in teaching them. You would have to ask the parents for a sensible answer to that one!
Having been a child in MA lemme throw my 2 cents in... If the child becomes BB even at an early age doesn't that merit some kind of an accomplishment? I hate it when you ppl, you know who you are :yeleyes:, knock schools that have a lot of kids, so what. What happens when those kids become adults, you'll be dead or stricken with arthritis from typing on MAP so much that u can't practice. And they are and will be several years ahead of your own training. I think most of the people who say kids can't be BB's are just jealous that they couldn't be one. Now Don't get me wrong If the school is just a printing press for BB's, or is just a glorified day care then ya, that doesn't count. We as Maist's should all encourage the children to become BB, instead of buying a video game maybe you should buy a Gi, dobok, then maybe this world would be a better place. Sorry if I didn't make any since. have a nice day p.s. BTW it's harder for them than it is for you, even with a "dumbed down" curriculum.
Or people aren't jealous at all they just feel that giving out black belts to kids devalues the grade across the entire art, which is my few and seemingly shared by many others. I'm all for encouraging kids to train but there's no need for them to wear a black belt. My judo coach's son is 14 and pound for pound he is a much better judo player than I am. However he's happy with his blue belt as that's the highest grade his age allows. He can get a brown belt soon, then start collecting points towards his black belt which he can get at 16. I see no reason why giving him a black belt now would change anything.
I don't see why presenting a "black belt" to a child would devalue the same award (i.e. a black belt) if given to an adult, PROVIDED that a *distinction* is made (i.e. JUNIOR black belt vs. FULL black belt, or [adult] black belt). I know the TKD folks avoid this issue by NOT calling their younger achievers "junior black belts" and instead call them "poom" (or something like that). But honestly, I personally don't see the difference.
