I will do that, and some Dumog to boot wonderfull (helps Diego_Vega keep subject on topic to also avoid mod warning for another day )
Why thank you elhiggito and how is your Dumog (craftily making sure elhiggito stay on the subject so he can avoid a warning from the MAPpers)
Dumog is very different compared to BJJ, Judo but close to catch as can if anything. The mind set is different . The dumog like kali and Arnis is also different in flavor depending on the region that practices it. It is very hard to find but it is practiced. In commercialzed urban areas in manila you will find dumog mixed in with Judo and Bjj? - keep looking , In Manila look for Mumbakki and the submission dungeon- free plug shooto. In Negros and Panay Islands if ever invited you will be surprised at the strengths of the practitioners- this is where you will find very indeginous DUMOG with carabaos, mud wrestling, coconut husking and tree climbing training forearm bashing and lambanog!!-bring a chiropractor with you, then again the teacher there will do it for you. The moves and mentality is focused on spine manipulation and joint breaking. This may not be new to grapplers but the "flavor" of how we arrive to these moves even to BJJ and Judo players will attest to this. The PHilippines have their share of up and coming BJJ and mixed martial artist who have been to Tuhon Gaje's seminars and presentations as well as Carlos Gracie seminars, Bj Penn and the like. And THERE IS A DIFFERENCE And they will attest to it's deadly if not aggressive nature . I practice dumog and dumpag with the grapplers in my group as "play" to keep my skills alive and keep my students in check when they decide to grapple when weapons are involved in the game. "dirty " Is nothing new to fighting. everyone does it. But when you train to submit and play not to hurt or maim thereby foregoing destruction of certain target to compliment your break or lock then the mentality of a fighting art switches to a sport and that's where athleticsm and conditioning has good advantage .
You know, I have to be honest. I'm really skeptical about all this dumog talk now. How do you practice something so dangerous under pressure? I'm not saying the techniques aren't effective, but how can a person effectively deploy these techniques which appear to be too dangerous to practice at full force? The skills of judoka, wrestlers, bjj and other grapplers rest on the fact that they can practice their techniques "alive". From what I've read about dumog so far, I can't imagine people practicing it full contact without seriously injuring their partner. So I want to know, how do you train your dumog?
Same way we train with weapons in FMA , controlled full force development of skills from light controlled moves, light sparring aknowledging what would have been certain kind of tactics when delivered. It's not a game of win or loose it's a game of figuring out how the body moves and how to manilpulate it. Yes it's not something for full contact. Dumogeros who do it full time pretty much do alot of conditoning on inanimate objects. It's not something we do as a primary focus of training but complimentary because in the world on weapons fighting with blades hooking up with one opponent is not our preffered choice. Knowing what to do as a last resort though is important. It's all a matter of time spent doing something. Bjj players spend 100% grappling yes? We tend to spend 70% weapons with the 20% translated to emptyhand specifics and 10% groundfighting. There's only so much time we wold rather spend it with weapons. Leo Gaje has been to Rochester and will do so again after his stint with the Military Forces this month why not check him and his students out yourself and see how it's done?
Hey Linguo, Talk with Guro Doug as well. When they work (or at least in the past when we worked) Dumog, it was close to what Bayani describes. A lot of it goes to working position and not submission. Remember, as a solid rule, that the difference between a break and a joint lock is an issue of speed and extension. So we would roll, set the manipulation and then move on. Is it as fully resisting alive as Judo? No. But it gets you pretty close. - Matt
How do you think Thai Boxers train for full contact, they do not spend every session elbowing and kneeing the living daylights out of each other, they use control, but this does not stop them elbowing and kneeing each other full contact in the ring, Dumog has the same approach, like all training most of the students have to get up for work in the morning and many would like to train the next day, so if you went full bore in every session you would last if you were lucky and very good, maybe a couple of session because someone would get a lucky strike and put you out of commision for a while. I would suggest you get yourself a good Dumog instructor and try it out for size, You may be surprised and you may change you veiw, as a matter of fact if you find a good group, I know you will. regards Pat
I did attend the GT Gaje seminar a few months ago, and had a few classes with Guro Doug. Schedule conflicts and finance issues currently prevent me from continuing with Doug. Anyway, I got a taste of what dumog had to offer, and found some of the dumog techniques questionable, which made me wonder if the techniques had been worked under pressure. An example would be the defense against a single leg takedown or "shooter". The suggested defense was to go with the movement of the shooter. Instead of resisting the takedown, you go with the motion of the takedown. You allow the person to fall forward as your leg collapses under the takedown This causes the shooter to end up on his side, allowing you to take advantage of a rear choking position. Ideally, the shooter will have landed into an open guard. This is what I remember at least. I do remember that our group had issues because people were falling "the wrong way", as in off to an angle that you couldn't use. The defense assumed that the "shooter" is trying to drive your leg forward and knock you on your back. It doesn't take into account that the "shooter" is actually trying to yank your leg up in order to dump you on your back. I found the dumog defense strange to say the least. It didn't appear to understand the dynamics of a takedown. Now, I understand that a few classes and a seminar does not make me any sort of authority on dumog. After all, I didn't get a chance to train it the way others have described. I just found some of the techniques suspect. I think the thing that struck me as peculiar was the overall complexity of the techniques. For an art that stresses simplicity, I found some of the dumog techniques oddly complicated. Why use your leg for bait when a sprawl is a more effective defense that puts you in a better position to counterattack? If you are lucky, you'll still keep the fight standing. What really raised my eyebrows about this thread was how all the talk of these "combat" techniques started to resemble alot of the talk that one hears from other deadly str33t arts. I'm not suggesting you try to maim each other just to be sure your technique works. I was just curious to if you work against somebody who is reasonably resisting your attempts. Considering the severity of some of the techniques (breaking spines), I just find it hard to train these techniques in a resisting environment. After all, breaking joints is far different from throwing knees and elbows. The reason I feel submissions are important, especially in preparation for combat is for precisely the reason that Matt described. It's only a matter of speed and extension that separates a break from a submission. A submission is a good gauge of proper technique. You know it works because your partner is in pain. If a situation requires you to break an arm, you will have an understanding of the techniques necessary to perform that task.
Linguo, You based your observations from a seminar? It's a showcase of finished moves, Try rolling with an accomplished dumogero. I bet your partner was not an accomplished one but a fellow seminar learner. What makes it work is not the techniques but the mindset of the techniques and also the preparation for it. The single leg take down that you reffer to is using what was taken by the opponent which was the leg and going for what was given up in exchange, the uppper torso being the eyes, ariway and neck. The point being give up a pawn for a queen. Now we all know that you really can't prctice taking the eyes out, smashing the throat or twisting the spine. but looking to these areas as direct respnse and "playing to disrupt these areas is very much avisual training "MINDSET" just like when you are doing your thrust in the air or stikes that barely stop in front of your training partner. anyway so much talk can only go so far unless you truely train in it. And half of making it workis notthe technique but the conditioning drills that develop the attributes. The stuff you call complex is simplicity by those who are familiar with what is going on hence their understanding. No different with those exposed to something new. This opbservation then does not follow with previous observations by others that would link dumog as Judo or bjj in another language. and lastly-it's a complimentary art in pekiti Tirsia-weapons still are the primary focus at least that's what I know of the Rochesterkali groups mindset. But I digress for a second because we have met with the same topic over and over. An accomplished grappler of which the ground is their game will rule the day if they play their game vs one who dabbles in it to undestand another's game . "Their game" means not allowing the targets mentioned to be destroyed nor allowing multiple stabs to critical areas before during and after their engagement.
Great Points Lingou. It's awesome that you got to go to the Gaje seminar. I look forward to making it this year. I should be careful with my posts, because I sometimes type a little fast. When we would work the material as a supliment to the armed combat in Rochester, the first step was to work position and not submission. From there we did go on to subs. But very carefully. The fact is when dealing with the neck and spine you have to go slow. But there's still an allowance for resistance in there. So, yes, you can work Dumog (and really just about any combat system) in an alive fashion. Though, just as with any training scenario, there are going to have to be concessions. Sport optimized grappling arts definitely do allow for a higher degree of resistance than "dirty" arts. But even in the latter you can go pretty far down the "resistance" continumn. And Bayani's points about grappling are well taken as well. - Matt Br
Linguo, You have some very good point from the little expeariance of Dumog you have been exposed to, which as they say a lot of the time, first impression count, but I think you may need to do a little more training in this feild and then I think you will come to appreaciate what Dumog has to offer, like any art it is not perfect, it has it's good points and it's bad point, but it has something to offer that's for sure which I am sure you can add to you submission fighting skills. I have used this self same technique many times and have trained a few MMA fighters who have also adopted this technique, we tend to cal it the sacrifice takedown, again like all techniques there are times when it works and there are times when it does not, not technique is infalable, especialy if it is not performed ina controlled situation such as an MMA bout, but my guys have used it to good success and we tend to work all the variables on the principal of this technique, we all understand that everyone falls differently and you have to train for that ocurance, but when you first learn any technique the instructor will show you how it works in an ideal situation, once you have learnt this then you need to train the same techniques using the 'what if this happens' mentality. Like all techniques with proper training and time served as they say you should be able to pull it off from virtually any direction. Not really, knees and elbows can and do break joints, how often have you trained an elbow to your opponents elbow and accepted that fact that if used with enough force it will break the joint, but when training you don't use full force becuase you know you will injure your training partner, all martial arts hold back to a certain degree when it comes to joint breaking techniques, for if they did not we would soon run out of training partners and those that are left would not want to train with you. And you would more than likely end up in court anyway. I think you need more time if possible to train in Dumog, and then I think you will really appreaciate what it has to offer. regards Pat
nice points everyone! i want to say something about the dumog but have little time to do it. -dumog isn't like bjj that has a set curiculuum that is more or less standard from school to school. as with the rest of fma, it varies from region to region, from system to system (even from instructor to instructor). -dumog practices are pretty much done with equal amounts of aliveness and restraint (especially since you deal with the spine). -dumogueros will ususally bang while they transition. (more later)
