What do YOU want from the ninjutsu forum?

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Moosey, Dec 20, 2008.

  1. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    Hi All,

    After a couple of threads recently complaining about how MAP's ninjutsu forum isn't as good as it should be, we'd be interested to know what would make for your perfect ninjutsu sub-forum?

    I'm outright asking you what you think would make this a better ninjutsu forum?

    I'm not promising we're going to implement any drastic changes, but by knowing what our users want, we can try and channel things in the right direction.

    For the moment, I'm opening up the thread to any and all suggestions from ninjutsu guys. Any sarcastic or derogatory comments aimed at the art or its practitioners will simply be removed, so save me and you the wasted effort and keep them to yourself.

    I realise as a karate practitioner/topic moderator I am not native to this forum but I'm posting this with my global moderator hat on and with the approval of the ninjutsu mods.

    Be constructive and be sincere - say what you want and how you feel we could achieve it.

    Again, no promises, but consider this a survey.
  2. bujingodai

    bujingodai Active teacher now. Supporter

    I would like the idea of a subforum personally. The matter that regardless of how much is tried the threads sometimes turn into a slugfest.
    Possibly somewhere where those who believe non moderation or little mod should be into affect, sort of a verbal figting ring. Again shouldn't happen but it would keep the more serious discussion on the board itself.

    Sort of a kumite forum, make it ugly and get it off your chest. No threats and no profanity. Normal idea, just a little more aggressive if need be.
    Just a thought.

    I would love to see more an open mind to schools. Even if they are not mainstream, if anything we could learn how and why they were developed rather than witchhunting them. If they want to do that take it to the subforum.
  3. Custom Volusia

    Custom Volusia Valued Member

    I see no need for a subforum. This is just a simple case of some people getting away with things that are causing a problem. For the most part MODS are hands off as long as you don't violate the TOS, but this is obviously not working in this particular forum. If someone is not contributing to the conversation in a helpful way, or at least not just out right trying to get a rise, then they should be warned. I know this does not technically violate the TOS, however, it does seem like they are only trying to cause problems (troll) and, viewed like that, that IS a violation. Some other Ninjutsu practioners themselves need to cool off and not take everything as a personal attack.

    Bascially I think a few weeks of heavy MOD work could fix the problem. This should be a place for them to talk about their art and have some fun. Others should be able to come in and ask questions or reply, but the negative comments have obvioulsy gone to far.

    Cooler heads must prevail.
  4. Fu_Bag

    Fu_Bag Valued Member

    I think it'd be great for ALL sincere students of the arts affiliated with, or lumped together as, Ninjutsu to have a place where they can discuss the art(s) without being constantly bombarded with "intellectual curiousity" and "a great concern for them and their crappy training methods", etc., etc..

    The current situation is that it appears that they have it yet they really don't. Part of the problem, and this has been brought up numerous times, is that the Bullshidoite/Aliveness nutriders, et al appear to have little "cheat sheets" on how to troll the "ninjer" forum without getting banned and everytime the mods say "free pass" more stuff gets added to said sheets.

    There are clear violations of TOS that take place but the Mods say "free pass" due to the fact that they think the students and the art are of crap quality and, therefore, the Mods can better relate to the reported "troll" than the students in this forum. It almost seems like the Mods are saying "Yeah, I can see how they need to grow a thicker skin and stop being so (fill in the blank).

    Daniel has made a lot of good points regarding this. His comment on how its like Jeopardy - where there is only one answer (YMAS!!! LOLZ!!!!) and every single new thread/post/counter post the "trolls" make works back to that answer through various "intellectual curiousities", "valid points", and "fair criticisms" that the Mods let slip by.

    If the Mods want to be fair and help these people have a forum where they don't have to constantly answer "That's not how it is where I train" or "We DO train that way" (times infinity), then the Mods are going to need to be supplied with something along the lines of "Troll Job Cheat Sheets" that are commonly agreed upon by the actual, sincere, regular students of the art(s).

    This thread would be a great place to compile such cheat sheets. But really, if its gotten to the point to where the "intellectually curious" and "concerned, real martial artists" are coming in, causing problems, getting the regular student/members banned, and causing people to leave, then, at some point, someone is going to need to finally apply the TOS and say "Yep, looks like troublemaking to me.".

    The "intellectually curious" and "concerned real martial artists" can easily be viewed in the same light as the problematic students on this subforum. Whining and belly aching over "you don't train the same way we do" and "why won't you just admit your art sucks and start training the way we do" is just as bad, if not worse, than anything that happens in here on a regular basis. At least the members of this subforum don't regularly crash other subforums with their "intellectual curiousities", "valid points and concerns", and "YMAS!!!! LOLZ!!!!".

    So, okay, the people here are insular, to say the least, and appear not to be able to get along with each other, have constructive/productive conversations, deal with outside criticisms very well, nor come across as "the real" to many from outside of the art(s).

    The point is, however, that this subforum was given to them so that they could be their wacky weird selves so long as they abide by the TOS. Its clear that the "Open Mat/Bullshido Throwdown" method doesn't work here. If that's what MAP wants, then, in reality, MAP truly is nothing more than one big general forum with no real subforums. Just as there are schools where students can interact with people of like mind and train in the art of their choice without disruption (outside of the throwdown/open mat environment) so too should there be actual subforums. And that appears to be not only what these guys want but what they apparently need to enjoy this subforum.

    Are any of these things a possibility?
  5. Bronze Statue

    Bronze Statue Valued Member

    I suppose one effective albeit draconian countermeasure against all the crap that's come up in the forum is a ban on the users who use this forum for socializing (we have an Off Topic forum for that), for discussing media-jitsu or other matters not properly associated with the art (we have Movies and Television and Video Games forums for that), and for insubstantive and/or so-called "****-taking" posts (we have the Jokes forum for that).

    I'm not recommending that course of action, however, because that'd take out a good chunk of the posters I've seen here, rendering the forum nearly empty (and perhaps even requiring its removal). But that's a testament to the low quality of posters and posts, both among some practitioners and many visitors.

    As far as flame-wars from topic rehashing goes, I'm afraid I don't know just why it's going on; I don't see why it's not happening in this fashion in other forums.

    I'm trying to think of a way to improve this, and I'm forced to wonder just why I don't see this sort of behavior among the people in, say, the Capoeira forum or the Karate forum.

    I'll be doing my part to improve this place; hopefully in the next few days if time permits I'll see if I can start another technique thread a la Skuggvarg's Koku thread, or something of that nature. This place has a serious signal-to-noise ratio issue that I don't see in the other forums here.
  6. Custom Volusia

    Custom Volusia Valued Member

    You don't see it in other forums because other arts are not viewed in the same light. Also, as stated by MANY people (including the Ninjutsu Practitioners themselves) many of them have what's referred to as 'thin skin' and fall for a baited trap. Be this right or wrong, that's how it is.

    I say rule with an iron fist for a couple weeks or a month, let people know that it will not be tolerated, and problem solved.
  7. Topher

    Topher allo!

    I think it should be run just like all of the other sub-forums - where anyone can post, for any honest legitimate reason, as long as it is within the TOS. You shouldn't need to be a member of the style, or even a prospective member, to be able to post, ask questions and discuss the style. You should be able to ask questions, and if member of the style thinks the person is wrong then they should clearly explain and discuss why they are wrong. At the moment if the Ninjutsu practitioner thinks the person/criticism is wrong, and the 'outsider' does not think the response of the Ninjutsu practitioner is valid or sufficient, and therefore they continue to discuss the issue, they are immediately labelled as a troll or something similar, yet someone can honestly disagree and want to discuss the issue, and not be a troll.

    So I think the Ninjutsu forum should be run just as all the other sub-forums are run, and the Ninjutsu guys who post here need to lighten up a little. It's not like the Ninjutsu sub-forum is especially being targeted by so-called outsiders. Exactly the same thing happens on the other sub-forums. Discussions, criticisms and disagreements happen. It may be harder to spot due to the increased number of posters in some of the the sections, but it's there. I remember it all the time back when I trained in Kung Fu.
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2008
  8. llong

    llong Valued Member

    Installing mods who train in the art they are moderating.

    I can't believe that had to be said.
  9. Ace of Clubs

    Ace of Clubs Banned Banned

    I think Martial Talk had a really good solution.

    They have a contemporary Ninjutsu sub-forum and a traditional Ninjutsu sub-forum.

    Contemporary Ninjutsu sub-forum deals with Dux Ryu, Ashida Kim, Konigun and general ninjutsu inquiries and the Traditional Ninjutsu sub-forum deals with Bujinkan, Genbukan, Jinenkan and Toshindo.

    So the trolls and practitioners still have a place to slug each other to death with their keyboards and serious discussions can still take place without interference.
  10. Topher

    Topher allo!

    There is another mod who trains in Ninjutsu.

    Surely you agree however that it is a good idea to also have a mod that does not train in the given art, thus removing any bias and emotional attachment to a particular lineage or group within the style.
  11. Banpen Fugyo

    Banpen Fugyo 10000 Changes No Surprise

    A mod who is a practitioner (doesnt have to be a talented one haha) and Ckava remaining as a mod would do the trick. Ckava, though sometimes I disagree with him, is at least a likable guy and has some decent logic/reasoning abilities. Also, I would find it impolite to kick him out of mod-status when he really hasnt done anything wrong.

    Having said that, an additional mod with ninpo experience (perhaps even actively training) would be nice.

    On the other hand (is that three hands?) I know this forum is full of Bujinkan practitioners, and while I disagree with what alot of them believe, it still doesnt take away from the fact that the "trolls" are here for mostly bujinkan-inspired attacks.

    Please dont take this in a demeaning way, this is just due to the bigger population of practitioners and general publicity of the Bujinkan as opposed to the other xkans.

    So, if we do have this Bujinkan practitioner who happens to become a mod, he would have to be VERY open minded (like Brad) and be able to tolerate posts from outside of their sphere of influence. I wouldnt want to see a thread closed because of an obvious bias towards a different mindset, whether it be another xkan mindset, or an MMA mindset.

    To put it bluntly, its a tough call. I dont want this section to get "special treatment" like the fool class of MAP, but on the other hand, if we are the skinny nerds of MAP, and keep getting picked on, then maybe there SHOULD be an exception and let there be a sub-subforum where members of the ninpo community can throw poo at each other (like usual) without having to worry about it coming from all directions.

    A "general ninjutsu" forum, and a ninjutsu training forum.

    Or maybe, a forum where ANYONE from ANY STYLE can discuss other styles (not just ninpo) in a way similar to YMAS from Bullshido or the "bad budo" type of areas from Ebudo.

    Sorry for the long post.
  12. adouglasmhor

    adouglasmhor Not an Objectivist

    Maybe a name change - Ninjutsu/Ninpo is only one aspect of any of the X-Kans and yet it is the thing most non members fixate on. Maybe if we didn't pander to the fiction of us hanging upside down in trees throwing shuriken at each other or similar bollox we wouldn't have to put up with so much carp in here.
  13. Su lin

    Su lin Gone away

    I'm not a ninja person but I don't think there should be any sub forums or forums where only people who train in the art should be allowed- if that happened then why shouldn't us mma folks or muay thai folks have somewhere that others can't come into!

    Surely it's not really always about how the staff here deal with the issues,but members need to take a certain amount of responsibility too.

    I can talk from experience,in that we used to get similar things happening in kung fu with the old lau gar lineage rubbish all the time that other people used to get involved in. As I said in another thread, sometimes it's a case of walking away and taking some deep breaths.

    I think CKava does a great job in interpreting the information he is given and generally is fair and obviously a very intelligent guy. But yeah, I think it is important to ALSO have a ninjutsu practitioner as a mod so that they have more of an inside view. However, they must be neutral - I got too involved in the lau gar debates and although I had an insight into the style, it was so hard to remain completely unbiased.

    Sorry, I didn't mean to intrude- I just see issues here that I have experienced myself in the past. :)
  14. 2E0WHN

    2E0WHN Homebrew for idiots

    Why not just get rid of it. 2 years ago it was going fine, then some mods had a internal slagging match and the mods got booted. We had about 4-5 mods on here all in kans and it ran like clockwork. Now it is open to all mods who have only the slightest idea of what we do moderating something they do not understand.

    Close it off, start again. But this time choose mods that do not have temperance and a itchy ban finger but those that are willing to really help others as moderators should do instead of mods who have no idea at all.
  15. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    They have one - Bujingodai
  16. Ace of Clubs

    Ace of Clubs Banned Banned

    Yes i believe the liberal bans issued by certain mods that will not be named (you know who you are) ruined the forum.

    I was about to say change the sub-forums name to Bujutsu but i just noticed there is a new sub forum called Koryu Bujutsu. The majority of X-kan schools are authentic koryu so why don't we just use that forum and leave this one for the pigeons.
  17. Anth

    Anth Daft. Supporter

    Correction - two: bujingodai and xen.
  18. Kurtka Jerker

    Kurtka Jerker Valued Member

    Bad idea. If you don't want drama, going into the Koryu house and saying we're legitimate is not the way to go about it. I don't know about this forum's koryu section, but the a great deal of people who make a big deal out of "koryu or not" tend to get snippy with the Takamatsuden arts.
    Last edited: Dec 20, 2008
  19. Banpen Fugyo

    Banpen Fugyo 10000 Changes No Surprise

    Yeah, horrible idea.
  20. 2E0WHN

    2E0WHN Homebrew for idiots

    Have to admit, it does make them winter nights fun.

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