What do you think and feel about this opinion?

Nowhere have a stated that I rely on being always armed. That's as preposterous as the idea that a defender never has access to weapons. Sometimes you will have access, sometimes you won't. The difference though is that a person trained in knife combative will have a better chance of reducing damage than someone who isn't. Regradless of whether they are armed or not. To defend against a knife you have to know how to use one and to know how to use one requires you train in knife combatives. It's that simple. Oh and if someone is skilled enough to disarm me and use my own knife against me, they're probably skilled enough to kill me regardless of what weapons may or may not exist in that confrontation.

Training for the "Worse case scenario" is counter productive. Instead people need to train for what they can realistically defend against. Once they've improved they train against something harder. The idea of "worse case scenario" fails miserably considering that a true "worse case scenario" is so bad that it is impossible to win against. Fighting one guy armed with a knife... yeah that's a survivable scenario. Fighting three guys armed with knives and you have a broken neck and four broken limbs... now that's "worse case scenario". Train for that and you're wasting your time.

 

If you rely on a one stike kill mentality your in for one big shock. I have in my time had to hit people who were either drunk or out of their face on charlie and trying to glass me or stab me. These guys feel very little if no pain and it is not unusual for the to simply get hack off if you hit them. You have to hit them hard, fast and as many times as you can to finish the encounter. So don't for one minute assume one hit kill will do it.

For instance. I used to work one particular night club in Dewsbury. Yorkshire. One night the door staff found this dealers stash of coke and when he returned from to toilet smashed out of his skull he was not a happy bunny rabit to say the least. I gor the shout on the radio and got to where he was with 4 of he large door staff struggling with him and they just could not get him down. Thy shouted at me to floor him. I had to stamp on the back of his knees to get him down we eventually got him out side where I spent the next 45 minutes sitting on him and hitting him with as many shots as I could before the police finally arrived and 4 of them struggled to get him in the back of the paddy wagon.

My mates on the door did stand and watch as they thought it was funny me spanking this guy for so long. Doormans humour. We did have a good laugh about it.

This particular guy was of slight build and that night you could have hit him with a truck and he was so smashed he would not have felt it. A one punch kill on him would not have worked and just angered him more.

If your attacker has a knife and he is within striking range you have a 1% chance. If you know what your doing you just doubled it to 2% unless you can get an equaliser. But better to have some chance than no chance at all and better to know it and not need it rather than need it and not know it.

To many martial artitists under estimate the edged weapon and don't pay it enough respect let alone spend enough time learning to deal with it and even more fail to realise that if they are within striking range the chances of you getting your knife out to even it up is minimal to say the least. Chances are he will get you before you get your weapon and a knife wielding idiot cand stab you 3 or 4 times a second and it only takes one stan to kill you instantly.

Best regards
Pat

 

And for those that ambush you I have one peice of advise. Pray quickly because your dead. I have been asked countless times on seminars 'what do you do if a knife fighter comes up behind you?' answer 'if you don't see him YOU DIE'.

 

I'd agree whole heartedly with that. Also adding that with the case of many weapons designed to be deadly, the ambush doesn't even have to come from a particularly skilled combatant. Even an idiot can take out a skilled combatant using a lucky ambush. Defending against an ambush involves awareness and common sense to avoid the attack. Because a successful ambush is a true "worse case scenario" in that you've lost... no ifs, no buts.

 

I've always held that same opinion too regarding knife defense as well. Too many people are quick to show what is the "best way" to defend against a knife when they have no experience actually using one in the first place.

 

Wow. I was following this thread a little while ago and it was sort of stale. Now there is lots of good food for thought.

I think Marc is deliberately pessimistic. Thats just my opinion, I do not know the guy. Too many people think their fancy moves will work when they probably won't. I think Marcs stuff is written for people who do not already understand the serious nature of an armed attack. Once someone is woken up and has accepted how dangerous knife attacks are, then appropriate training can begin to build up the confidence to a realistic level with a more reality based approach to the training methods, techniques and mind set employed.

If you really wanted to, you could nit pick about anything. You could bring out one little point and argue it, but really, why bother?

Having said that, I have one point where I do disagree with Marc is with his Lie # 10 Grappling with a knife. I have written about this in detail here, Grappling when weapons may or may not be involved.

Basically, I feel that when done appropriately a certain kind of grappling increases our chances of success in stopping a knifer being able to deploy it against us. And it is gross motor skill so works better than fiddly fine motor skills. I am not talking about shooting in for the double leg. I am talking about latching onto the knife bearing arm. Controlling that knife bearing arm is ESSENTIAL if we are to counter such an attack. If you can block one thrust or the first in a sewing machine flurry of 20, all you have done is stop that one stabbing attempt. The rest will soon follow. You are back to step one. That arm HAS to be controlled. Latching onto it is the only way to go. I am not going to specify one particular technique here, I am just saying the knife bearing limb needs to be controlled and latching onto it is the first step. There are better ways to do this and not so good ways to do this. But this is grappling, not submission wrestling grappling but grappling all the same. Specialist grappling maybe. Once the knife bearing arm is controlled, go from there, do whatever technique you train in and know well. Attack the eyes, whatever.

So yeah, that is the one area I feel definitely different to Marc on this one topic. Of course, not being in a area where knife attacks are likely such as dark streets and what Marc calls "Fringe areas" is important. Most attacks with knives happen on the street or other open land when the victim is travelling from one place to another. Just under half of all robberies and muggings involve weapons. The most common weapons used, is the knife, except in the US where it is a firearm, followed by a knife. So understanding how the knife is used in attacks is important. And no, you do not necessarily need to train in knife combatives. A knife attacker wil not attack you in the same way your training partner will in a knife combatives class. Generally, they will keep the knife hiden as long as possible and when they are close, they will discretely pull it out and stab you with it, maybe out of your line of sight and you may think they punched you, not stabbed you. You probably will not feel the knife, or see it. Most people don't know they have been stabbed until after the encounter. The most dangerous attack is one where the knife is used in a sewing machine or machine gun fashion with 10 or 20 or whatever multiple rapid stabs. A 14 yr old with one minutes of training from an ex con is all that is needed.

 

altc, thanks.. Good post.

It almost sounds like you're advocating Aikido. With Pressure Testing training there.

 

Aikido? ... I think the philosophy and idea behind Aikido is very good, but the techniques tend to be... low percentage. In that many of the techniques in Aikido are technical in nature and require fine motor skills such as wrist control etc, and dont work so well without a co-operating uke, training partner.

With appropriate pressure testing using training partners who attack like a real attacker would and not like a traditionally trained student, training progress in this regard can be made. It would certainly take an open minded and progressive Aikido instructor to facilitate such training. Hopefully it happens, and happens more and more regularly. There is no reason it couldn't.

 

Interesting how your previous paragraph is rather detailed in technical grappling specifically against a knife and then you go on to say that you do not need to know any knife combatives. Anti-knife grappling is part and parcel of knife combatives. Also I don't know what sort of knife training you're talking about but one's I've undertaken have my opponents using a variety of attacks. From dueling to wild lunges, tackles, dressing up in camo and jumping me on the way to the gym or home.... As for the assassination part, again I'll restate, there is no point in training a situation wherein you have already been stabbed, beaten and/or about to die. The only defense against assassination is awareness and common sense. Though I've found in this day and age at least, awareness and common sense tend to be quite lacking.

 

Grappling with a knife? Mmmmm! Limb control. Limb destruction and joint locking during limb control and / or destruction yes. But all out grappling against a knife is a losing option. Even limb control has to be instantaneous and if it don't work don't fret just keep on hitting and looking for a way out of there to try to gain the initiative.

As for assassination. Well simply pray your wounds are not fatal and if they are. Pray there is an after life.

Best regards
Pat

 

Well said. Which is why I'd reiterate the need to actually have a working knowledge of knife dynamics. Striking, grappling and even retreating against a knife has a different dynamic than doing so against empty hands. Any martial arts school that thinks their empty hand syllabus willl seemlessly translate into bladed combat is doing itself a dangerous injustice. Theoretically it is possible for someone untrained to come out on top in a knife encounter against a well trained blade practitioner. Just as it's theoretically possible for someone with no grappling experience to win a sumbission grappling tourney. Theoretically possible... but practically impossible.

 

I totally agree. Any system that ignores the knife and training with it and against it does so at its peril. And as for theory all good on paper but reality is a whole different matter.

Best regards
Pat

 

I've been in an eskrima class for 5 months and agree with a lot of what I read in the OP link. I see a lot of video that have great joint locks that are effective but in reality are you going to be able to pull that off as a man is coming up from behind you with a knife. If he crashes 95% of the training that many people teach is throw out the window. I really like the no nonsense approach that I've been exposed to.

Again thanks for the link cause I really feel that this is so true and so many people should simplify and practice "real world" situations.

 

I can't add much that hasn't been said already. In general I thought the article made excellent points. The only gripe I have is the way he ragged on FMAs when experienced FMAers like Pat and Brian are saying the same thing. My own experience in FMAs with Rene Latosa, Martin Torres (DTE) and at seminars with John Jocobo, Mike Giron, Ron Saturno and others totally reinforces all the points made. My response to a knife is (provided I'm not stuck before I even see it), is to get the hell away. If I can't do that, pick up anything I can use as a weapon, preferably something that has some range (big club) or that can also shield me (bar-stool, etc.). Failing that, keep it simple, violent and direct... and know that you are probably screwed. No matter how "good" you are.

 

Your response is not suitable....

It is accurate, sensible and reasonable...

Please do not post this kind of response as nobody will be able to argue about it...



Seriously - Well said - I remember an exercise with a group of instructors from different martial arts where we started using washable magic markers as knives - We were ALL (without exception) in BIG trouble !!!

Obviously in any self defence situation if there is no hope it's probably still better to do something rather than nothing - but the idea that your training in XYZ art makes you able to deal with any attack is just fantasy.

 

Woe is the man who thinks his art will save his life in a knife attack. Yes is may help even the odds a little but the only thing that saves you is your intent to survive more than the other guy. Extreme bloody ugly violence is the only answer when running is not an option.

 

I agree completely. To quote Rory Miller - "The very essence of self-defense is a thin list of things that might get you out alive when you are already screwed." We cannot ignore the fact that mental qualities and wanting to live much more than the guy you're fighting are more powerful tools than simple physical training.

 

When I was referring to knife combatives I was referring to the type often seen on utube which shows someone in military camouflage pants doing a technical joint lock/Aikido style throw against a calm straight stab where the attacker stops his attack at full extension for the defender to calmly counter.

There is nothing wrong with practising against a wide range of attacks. Get creative with s%$t. But the basis needs to be with a training partner attacking using the most likely attack techniques in a realistic manner in realistic scenarios. Duelling/sparring can help for sure for when the first attack/counter fails.

I guess your opinion of what I was attempting to say can come down to what we both interpret the meaning of the words "knife combatives". No doubt there are good examples of knife combatives. when i see anyone in camo pants teaching civilians, i make judgement on those people and i make no apologies for that. It is not relevant and they are simply trying to appear to have some type of lethal skills to an uneducated civilian populace. yes, i have a hate bias on such people in camo pants or even full uniform. wearing such dress does not make u automatically more dangerous...

And for Pat, limb control is exactly what i refer to when i support a grappling based response to an edged weapon attack. limb control happens at grappling range.

 

Ah... the eternal problem of internet mis-reading. I am not particularly familiar with YouTube and have never really bothered to look at any MA stuff that is not directly linked to me from someone else. There's just too much rubbish out there on the Net. Ty for clearing up your position.

 

yeah, the written word can be taken in many ways. one of the things we need to take into account but the whole connectedness thing is well worth that