What do you think and feel about this opinion?

Discussion in 'Filipino Martial Arts' started by pakarilusi, Dec 5, 2010.

  1. robertmap

    robertmap Valued Member

    Thanks for your reply

    One small point...
    It's more complex in the UK - you are OK in using lethal force to defend yourself against lethal force.

    Carrying a knife or any other weapon on the street for any reason (including self defence) is going to get you arrested if found out. It is NOT a defence to say that I knew the area was dangerous so I took a weapon to defend myself.
     
  2. Atre

    Atre Valued Member

    UK: As a rule of thumb, if you ever have the smallest possibility of running away and don't - you risk prosecution. It's not inevitable, but it is possible.

    Although a bit of research has shown that the other stuff police spouted in school presentations about self-defence law was a massive f'ing lie: http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/self_defence/

    However, it is all rather woolly statements of law, so you are at the mercy of the CPS in most circumstances :)

    I mean, honestly, there is SO much wriggle room and personal interpretation in "reasonable" and "necessary" that they might have well as written the law down in crayon. On the plus side it leaves room for common sense, on the downside it leaves room for madness. Just need to hope you get the right kind of jury...

    PS. I don't think any country allows you to f*ck someone up just for having the temerity to enter your house without permission, which is occasionally presented as the US law situation
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2010
  3. pakarilusi

    pakarilusi Valued Member

    I hope Marc MacYoung chimes in...
     
  4. Octavian_Caesar

    Octavian_Caesar Valued Member

    But this is semantics.

    Knives are common in our society - they are in every building and often every room. They are in every bar, restaurant and lunch hall, where we frequent several times a day. Learning to use such a readily available weapon will never be a disadvantage. Anyone who says otherwise is clearly a complete idiot. Is it 100% necessary for competant self defence? Maybe, maybe not. But is it bad or should not be bothered in? NO
     
  5. LCC

    LCC Valued Member

    This is a well thought out and obviously well researched article. However we are all limited by our experiences and as I such I wish to put forth my ideas and experiences.

    1) Lie #1 You're going to have time to draw your own weapon and Lie #2 It's going to be a knife "fight"
    - Actually yes, in certain situations you will have time to draw your weapon. Home defense, a hold-up or when going into a situation you feel requires you to be armed. Then there's any number of weapons that can be found lying around.

    2) Lie #3 "But what if I'm cornered?" and Lie #13 That this is a "fight" at all
    - Every SD situation should be to flee first so in a way I agree. However, it is physically (or at least psychologically) impossible to flee certain situations. Defending one's family in one's own home is the first that comes to mind. Good thing that it's one of those times I'll have access to my weapons.

    3) Lie #4 He's going to attack you a certain way
    - This I agree wholeheartedly with. Any system that only trains you defend against it's own moves is flawed. However, attacks can come in the most unexpected ways (especially if the assailant is drugged) and it is impossible to train for every possible attack. Instead it's best to train for high percentage situations in the same way that one focuses on high percentage moves. It's not perfect but it's the best way I can think of.

    4) Lie# 5 And then he is going to passively stand there while you carve him and Lie #18 Drills teach you how to knife fight
    - Again I agree fully. Though a good school should explain these facts.

    5) Lie #6 Trapping and stripping, Lie #10 Grappling with a knife and Lie #16 It's easy to disarm an armed opponent.
    - It is very difficult to try and grapple an opponent with a knife. That is obvious. However the idea of controlling the attacking arm is a sound one. If your opponent does give you the opportunity to grab or even better; disarm their knife arm, then that's great. However "controlling" doesn't inherently mean grabbing and holding said arm. It also includes keeping one's alignment in such a way as to minimize potential damage. Getting cut in ways that are less damaging is also a way to "control". Knowing where the knife is and limiting the amount of opportunities to attack is also "control". When you assert said "control", it makes the whole situation a lot more survivable. And let's face it, no-one wins in a knife fight, you survive the best you can.

    6) Lie #7 Bio-mechanical cutting and Lie #19 You can use a knife on another human being without legal repercussions
    - I spend an inordinate time watching the news (and used to spend an inordinate amount of time arguing with lawyers and legal students) and here's what I've learnt. The law more often then not sides against the instigator especially when other victims (eg one's family) are involved. Not meaning to be glib, but choosing between the possibility of going to court and the possibility of being dead... well I'll choose the former. Heck I doubt my nature (and that of most martial artists and fighters) would allow them to choose the latter option.

    7) Lie #8 Knowing how to stickfight means you know how to knife fight and Lie #11 The knife is an extension of your hand
    - Very well written and 100% correct. Weapons have similarities to each other and to empty-hands but there are very important differences and anyone who doesn't accept that is lying to themselves. Which is why I recommend people learning knife combatives. Even if you never want to attack another human with your own knife, knowing how to attack with a knife increases chances of knowing how to defend against one.

    8) Lie # 9 Knowing kali makes you a knife fighter, Lie #12 There is such a thing as a master knife fighter and Lie #15 The FMA are the ultimate knife fighting systems.
    - Are FMAs the best knife fighting systems? Once I thought so but after having been exposed to numerous other knife systems I must admit that there are systems that are just as effective. So why do FMA? Simply put; integrity. The FMA community openly communicates within itself and outsiders in a way that few other civilian accessible knife systems do. Thus they are kept honest and forced to "prove" themselves. One can draw parallels to the BJJ community. BJJ isn't the only grappling art out there but it's the most trusted due to the integrity of the BJJ community. Now if only FMAs would start conducting "dojo storms" :D. As for being a master knife fighter, that's depends on personal definitions. I'd say my first instructor was a master. He successfully used and taught his knife fighting skills in WW2 and scared the hell out of the local criminals but he never engaged in sports duels nor systemized his skill set so some would definitely not consider him a master.

    9) Lie #14 Expect to get cut and Lie #17 You can successfully fight an armed attacker
    - Agree with this. Expecting to get cut and expecting to get carved up are not the same thing. Each scar I own is a testament to failure and not a source of machismo pride. Every fight must be finished as quickly as possible. Even in an empty handed bar brawl, some drunken idiot could get lucky and one KO you on the concrete or pick up a bottle (in which case it's pretty much the same scenario as a knife attack).
     
  6. Amber

    Amber Valued Member

    I agree with LCC.

    This article just feels so negative and pessimistic, for no real reason.

    I like articles that try and portray the dangerous reality of fighting, but this is really just scaremongering.

    Also;
    That's what sparring is for.
     
  7. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    If you can draw a weapon do it, but don't always think it'll be a luxury available to you. Even though US police officers carry sidearms we still have to be aware of trying to maintain a reactionary gap to give themselves time to react.

    And, that's provided you see it in the first place. Most knife "fights" are actually ambushes.

    Getting cut anywhere is bad news. Google the Michael Janich edged weapon threat video.
     
  8. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    This seems no different than any of the others I've read by guys who are pretty much straight shooters when it comes to self protection. A pessimistic view should be looked at when you consider fighting. This way you plan for the worst and when the best happens, you're pleasantly surprised.
     
  9. LCC

    LCC Valued Member

    It does feel somewhat pessimistic but it's writing style probably reaches certain audiences that may not feel empathy with more optimistic takes on knife fighting.




    That's why I said certain situations (as in not all). The knife as ambush is a valid argument though it is obviously not always the case. In countries where gun control is tighter than in the US, knives are a favored weapon of intimidation more often they are a tool of assassination. Also look at examples of victims being knife assassinated. Prisoners, bouncers, gang members, law enforcement officers and medical professionals... a lot of people don't fit into one of those categories so being assassinated by a knife isn't a common hazard (re: common, not impossible). Being threatened by a mugger or home invader with a knife is more probable.


    My own experiences with knives is that all places hurt and do damage but they do not all inflict the same amount of injury. I've seen and known of many acquaintances being cut and stabbed. As far as I know, all but two individuals I've known injured in such a manner survived. The knife is dangerous, yes, but it doesn't turn every user into some killing machine. Enough victims have survived multiple knife wounds to quickly dispel the myth of the knife as an infallible weapon of death.
     
  10. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    There are plenty of wackos with weapons out there, the possibility of being ambushed is very real. Let's also not forget that a lot of assaults and even murders happen during botched robberies.

    (I can post this now, so here's the video I mentioned previously):
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9PWmRWjDhYw"]YouTube - The Edged Weapon Threat[/ame]

    People have been shot multiple times and survived as well, but I wouldn't want to make it a habit nor try rolling the dice on that one. Rather than getting shot "in a way that is less damaging", I'd prefer not to get shot at all. Especially when you don't have much control over where you get hit and where you don't. No weapon is infallible, but any time your opponent has one is not the time to take it lightly.

    Kelly McCann has some pretty pragmatic approaches to knife defense. Simple, direct, and a lot more realistic than most of the garbage out there.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXLcbTVLzFs"]YouTube - Jim Grover - Jack Knife Defense[/ame]
     
  11. LCC

    LCC Valued Member

    Yes there are wackos but the fact remains that for most people being held up by a knife is more likely than being ambushed by a knife. As for those wackos, quite few of them go out obviously armed in order to cause fear or gain attention (katana wielding nuts come to mind) as opposed to just lurking in bushes in ambush for a random victim (I think those sort of cowards prefer sniping with guns). At the end of the day though, one must train for what is defensible. If you've just been critically stabbed by a skilled or lucky knife assailant... SD kind of becomes a mute point.

    No-one makes a habit of being stabbed or shot, then again no-one makes a habit of being assaulted. But if/when it happens, that's when you have to try and minimize damage. Again it comes down to training against a defensible position, which should be the core of any martial arts. Weapons should be respected but not to the point that fear makes you lose every encounter. Weapon doesn't equal instant death. Coming at the argument from another angle, people have died from being hit once with a punch from an untrained assailant (banging their head on the ground being the killer). Doesn't mean I'm gonna surrender and wait to die every time an unarmed, unskilled assailant throws a punch at me. Good knife training helps and a well trained knife combatant is going to have a much higher chance of surviving a knife attack (no not ambush / sniper / assassination) than an untrained individual. Martial arts isn't a total defense but it helps.
     
  12. pakarilusi

    pakarilusi Valued Member

    Yep, I agree... Some realistic training is better than none.
     
  13. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    You shouldn't rely on always being able to access your weapon when your opponent is already armed. If I have a knife and I'm within stabbing distance of you, I am not going to sit there and let you draw your bigger knife/firearm/sap/whatever. I'm going to stab, slice, and cut you as many times as I can. The idea that you're armed makes you safe is one that you shouldn't rely on. Especially since now any situation you go into there's going to be at least one weapon involved: yours. You'd better be well-trained with it, as it probably sucks a lot to die by the same weapon you've been carrying around to protect yourself.
     
  14. Amber

    Amber Valued Member

    Drills?

    Person A has a weapon in his/her hand.
    Person B has a holstered weapon (pocket, handbag, etc).

    Spar.

    No idea how this might turn out but I figure that person B will probably be able to defend (moving back, etc.) long enough to draw a weapon.

    Guess it probably depends on the weapon a bit but I'm sure if this was done semi-regularly people would get pretty decent at it.


    DAMN I NEED A CASUAL TRAINING PARTNER FOR THIS SHIZZLE.
     
  15. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    You definitely can if you're carrying open. An officer was recently attacked by a kidnapping suspect with a knife and he managed to backpedal enough to perform a close quarters draw and take his attacker down. Once you start getting it tucked down into places that are hard to access, things get a lot trickier, especially when you're nose to nose with a guy trying to kill you.

    [​IMG]

    Check out the "Armed and Not Dangerous?" article from Black Belt magazine, June 2003:

    http://books.google.com/books?id=Xd...ed=0CDYQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=fanny pack&f=false
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2010
  16. Kibbles

    Kibbles The Iron Bucket

    I was assaulted by a man with a knife once.
    I suppose he was trying to mug me.
    It went sort of like this:

    Masked man pulls knife on me as I walk down a dark road.
    I have no idea what he said. I remember getting tunnel vision on the knife.
    Somehow I get the idea to try and swat his knife away with my book loaded heavy backpack that I usually carry kinda just slung over one shoulder.
    Between that move and a poorly timed kick of mine I somehow get stabbed in the knee. I must've hit him hard with the pack though because he dropped to his knees then picked up the knife and ran.

    Thinking back though, I would have been sooo dead if he had picked up the knife, stood back up and started lunging at me. Luckily I just got away with a tiny scar.

    Relating this to the mentioned article:

    -Yup, there's pretty much no way for you to draw a knife in a situation like that. (I had a Swiss army knife compounding the matter further)
    -If he was really determined to kill me, the chances of my survival would have been abyssmal.

    I would have probably either ran in the hopes that there was a cop at the nearby bus station at such an ungodly hour (not likely) or that a Good Samaritan with balls of steel and a weapon lurked there; or I would have tried to gouge his eye out while fending the knife off with my other arm, probably dying in the process or surviving with a mutilated arm only to die of tetanus later. :D
     
  17. Brian R. VanCis

    Brian R. VanCis Valued Member

    I think that Marc writes from his personal experience and that from his experience people can gain a wealth of knowledge. He may be some times pessimistic and also some times you may not agree with him but he does have good material to convey!!! ;)
     
  18. 6footgeek

    6footgeek Meow

    Man that was a good article. i find his style to be perhaps too aggressive, but i also agree that that aggression is needed to get the point across some thick skulls. but in the end. i'd like some cited statistics to accompany any article.
    I personally agree with almost the entire article.
    especially about how a weapon changes a fight into a completely different thing. Infact. i'd rather treat every confrontation that escalates into blows that way. if a knife is drawn and you HAVE to confront it. don't muck around. take him out of commission. or you might be dead.
    a couple of things of note though.
    Although i love the fact that he has paid close attention to just how much SELF DEFENCE is subjective to the jury's views and not ours, he should have explained a little about the places where he experienced these laws.
    I say that because i have the fortunate pleasure of living in a country where perps of brutal and lethal vigilante justice have had their faces on national television, and walk around the streets scot free. Heck. these guys beat almost to death, drag their limp bodies behind their vehicle and dump their victem's now DEAD bodies in a ditch. and in the end it turned out the two men they killed were mistakenly identified as thieves. they even recorded their acts which were commited in front of a live audience that did NOTHING. including COPS that can be seen standing in the background.

    So when it dials down to being in a country where the aggressor and the victim are probably going to walk scot free. the situation presented is as different as the variance in styles a man can stab you with a knife. and hence the way one can deal with it is almost as flexible, although still preferable to RUN. RUN RUN. because of pretty much everything else he said about a knife fight.

    Also. there is a limit to how much one can flee. i don't expect to be able to run from my own house in the event of a armed robbery. and to a point i would say it is almost stupid to show your back to an armed man. by no means is it a smart idea to confront or aggravate him. but its damn stupid to expect to be able to get away from them too. they can run too. and they have you in full view while you CAN'T run and look back at the same time. I suggest either complying with what they say, or take him out with one single move if possible. you cannot muck around argueing or resisting an armed opponent.

    Expect to get cut. completely agree with what he said.

    there is no dueling. Exactly.

    You WILL NOT have time to draw your weapon.
    Thats highly conditional. If that was entirely true then pepper sprays and tazers would be redundant. What i do agree with is dont EXPECT to be able to take out your weapon. so give special thought to what to do when you can't draw a weapon. *comply mostly*
    If he gives you an oppurtunity. don't muck about brandishing your weapon once its out and telling them to f off. Stab them or cut them somewhere important, then run. And realise that this has to be done QUICKLY, paying special attention to his knife too. ofcourse laws come into play. but as i said above. not every country is the same.

    get familiar with what self defence means to your law system. Yes please. do so. visit a lawyer and talk it through with hi,. or go to a sherrif and do so.
     
  19. pakarilusi

    pakarilusi Valued Member

    Suddenly, Karate's "one strike kill" philosophy starts to make sense huh?

    That's what Geoff Thompson does... ;)

    Anyway, hope none of you ever get attacked with a knife ever.

    Good discussion so far...
     
  20. ArthurKing

    ArthurKing Valued Member

    I agree with a lot of what Marc McY says, it seems mostly common sense. It is 'pessimistic', he is concerned with 'the worse case scenario', the way i see it, his attitude is backed up with real experience, and is a great antidote to all the dangerous rubbish taught and promoted about self defence (generally, not just against a knife attack). I posted a thread about this subject a while back, and the conclusion we came to was very similar.
     

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