What do MA think of the Abrahamic God?

Discussion in 'Off Topic Area' started by Dialectitian, Dec 5, 2015.

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  1. Dialectitian

    Dialectitian Banned Banned

    No no. I agree with you! I am not creationist or adherent in the sense that I am "irrational".

    Wikipedia about Sumer: Sumer (/ˈsuːmər/)[note 1] was one of the ancient civilizations and historical regions in southern Mesopotamia, modern-day southern Iraq, during the Chalcolithic and the Early Bronze ages. Although the earliest specimens of writing in the region do not go back much further than c. 2500 BC, modern historians have suggested that Sumer was first permanently settled (me: there were different times, worlds then) between c. 5500 and 4000 BC by a non-Semitic people who spoke the Sumerian language.
     
  2. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    I felt my ears burning, then read through the thread and just... Well let's say to be fair that there is a very long conversation to be had, many misconceptions to clear up and if it's going to be had I would like both gold shifter and dialectician to agree to keep an open mind and argue in good faith with an honest commitment to inquiry. The world is, if there is a creator, the original documentation of his, her or its work and the observations we have made of the world trump any literary works. I'm also happy to start a new thread on evolution of that's better...
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2015
  3. The Iron Fist

    The Iron Fist Banned Banned

    Sure brother but what about all the civilizations (or evidence thereof) far older than Sumer? There is a great paradox here, of so much archaeology related to 'the gods' would suggest they could have been real, but all the extant holy books point at the wrong place in history as 'the beginning' of man, because they are associated to specific cultural references. So there must be specific cultural and social themes woven (love, selflessness, fate, sin and so forth), if you will, into the actual histories of each people (the Bible, Torah, Quran). They are each a mix of fact and fiction.

    In the case of the Hebrews for example their calendars and genealogies are about 5775 years old. That's quite a record! In the case of Sumer you have Gilgamesh who ties neatly into Abrahamic literature. Which really brings up an existential dilemma of sorts because there is a lot of lost time to account for if we are to use the extant holy books as a frame of reference for all of "Creation', because they only deal with the last few millennia, and we can't even prove for sure that Gilgamesh was real (and if you believe the scientific consensus on the Earth's actual 'genesis', there's more than a few billion years of 'history' missing from man's knowledge) :)
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2015
  4. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    I'm going to presume goodwill on the part of my compatriots in debate, so let's start. First, we need a glossary of terms.

    Science is not so much a body of facts as it is a method of investigating the natural world. It can trace its lineage directly to Descartes, the philosopher who began modernism, his writing prompted Alfred North Whitehead to say of it that never had so significant a change been made to civilization as when a babe was born in a manger. Science relies upon hypotheses that are tested to construct theories. Unlike the popular understanding of the word theory, it is not a guess or unproven assertion, but a broad explanation of a series of facts with the ability to generate testable predictions.

    Evolution is a theory not because it is unproven, but because it explains an incredibly broad range of independent facts and grants a scientist the ability to do work. Working with evolutionary theory, I can generate testable hypotheses, then prove them incorrect or support them by gathering data in the field.

    So what is evolutionary theory? What is its history? What does it offer us and what evidence supports it? I will proceed. :]
     
  5. Dialectitian

    Dialectitian Banned Banned

    i give up.
     
  6. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    So let us discuss the hypotheses. Evolution is commonly depicted as a tree of descent, lines linking each ancestor. There would be significantly different depictions of these lines under two scenarios; strict creationism, in which each organism is created separately, or creationism with a little bit of evolution, in which you would get very small trees. Please refer to the image here:

    [​IMG]

    A - refers to a creationist lawn in which each species is created separately with no diversification.

    B - an evolutionary scenario

    and

    C - creationism with a minor amount of diversification.

    So why do scientists think the answer is B?
     
  7. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    If your god created this world, then you can learn about this world. Augustine, whom you cite quite fondly, said not to argue about matters of natural science as this could only serve to embarrass the faithful.

    “It often happens that even a non-Christian knows a thing or two about the earth, the sky, the various elements of the world, about the movement and revolution of the stars and even their size and distance, about the nature of animals, shrubs, rocks, and the like, and maintains this knowledge with sure reason and experience. It is offensive and ruinous, something to be avoided at all cost, for a nonbeliever to hear a Christian talking about these things as though with Christian writings as his source, and yet so nonsensically and with such obvious error that the nonbeliever can hardly keep from laughing."

    “The trouble is not so much that the erring fellow is laughed at but that our authors are believed by outsiders to have held those same opinions and so are despised and rejected as untutored men, to the great loss of those for whose salvation we toil…How are they going to believe our books concerning the resurrection of the dead, the hope of eternal life, and the kingdom of heaven when they think they are filled with fallacious writing about things which they know from experience or sure calculation?"

    “There is no telling how much harm these rash and presumptuous people bring upon their more prudent brethren when they begin to be caught and argued down by those who are not bound by the authority of our Scriptures, and when they then try to defend their flippant, rash, and obviously erroneously statements by quoting a shower of words from those same Sacred Scriptures, even citing from memory those passages which they think support their case, ‘without understanding either what they are saying or things about which they make assertions’ (I Tim. 1:7)” – St. Augustine in The Literal Meaning of Genesis
     
  8. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    One of the most influential scientists of all time was a creationist, Carl Linnaeus, who devised a classification system of organisms. By examining their morphology he could construct a hierarchy of traits, grouping organisms that had more in common with each other into nested groups. He found a pattern in the world. Why do whales have bones for hind limbs and produce milk? Why do birds that never grow teeth or fingers have genes to grow them? Facts like these only make sense in light of evolution. In fact, according to one of the most influential biologists of the 20th century, "Nothing in biology makes sense except in light of evolution." Evolution is the overarching theory of what life is, why it is. More than just making sense in light of one line of evidence, many and multiple lines of evidence all point to evolution as the inescapable explanation for why life is the way it is.
     
  9. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    Charles Darwin was a young man when he signed aboard the Beagle. A failed chaplain and an embarrassment to his family, he traveled the world because he was a naturalist. As a young man he collected beetles, pinning them to wood mats and preserving them with mothballs. One day while collecting in the woods he saw two beetles he never saw before. After finding a third, he decided to pop one into his mouth, and keep the two in his hands. Unfortunately, the one he put in his mouth was a bombardier beetle that discharged super heated chemicals into Chuck D's mouth, burning him terribly.

    After surveying the Galapagos islands, and some important facts from Thomas Malthus, Darwin ventured forth perhaps the most elegant and amazing theory of all time. I am biased: I've met many scientists who turn their eyes towards the sky, craning their necks to catch the movement of a shooting star. I was never one of those, no matter how many times I watched Star Wars. I inspected every rivulet, every pond, every stream. I lifted logs to see what's underneath. Because of al the cosmological features in the universe, life strikes me as most complex, most beautiful, most fleeting and most important. Life on Earth has a due date. Eventually the shallow crust of biota will forever fade in the fires of a super nova, and it will be the last. So temporal. So beautiful. OK, let's keep going.
     
  10. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    Darwin was not the first person to endorse the ideas of evolution. In fact Linnaeus himself ventured the hypothesis that species could modify their morphology, the giraffe by striving for higher and higher foliage. Although this was not quite supported, there are some controversial evolutionary findings that vindicate him!

    Darwin's original idea was that organisms shared a common descent and that evolution operated by natural selection. Darwin observed that:

    1) Even the slowest reproducing organisms like elephants could very quickly overpopulate the Earth, meaning:

    2) Not all organisms survive to reproduce.

    3) Natural variation existed in populations.

    4) Those most suited to their environment survived to produce offspring, or produce more offspring than those maladapted.

    5) The traits granting benefit can be passed down to the next generation.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2015
  11. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    On the Galapagos, Darwin encountered a relatively rare situation - the extreme and rapid speciation across a wide array of ecological niches. This event, where a foundling species gives rise to a wide variety of species, is called adaptive radiation.

    [​IMG]

    Far from being the only example of adaptive radiation, Galapagos finches are one of many.

    What Darwin saw was that, unlike the mainland, finches here filled each ecological niche. Suddenly he realized that one finch must have given rise to each of the other finches. And how far back could this go? The nested hierarchy that Linnaeus had found could only be explained in light of evolution, where species splits off from species and creates the branching pattern found.
     
  12. belltoller

    belltoller OffTopic MonstreOrdinaire Supporter

    Interesting...I know I've heard this before. Is this from the Quran?

    I think it unique in that God (the Abrahamic God) exists in the form of the spoken,( written? ) word.

    "In the beginning was the WORD" I believe to that effect. Things were spake into existence.

    "Let there be light" and there was light. "Let there be sound" and there was sound.

    Let there be rock! :D Somethings' leaking into something else, I'm afraid.

    120 dB studio monitors are never safe - don't let anyone tell you differently.

    Anyroad...ah yes! God as embodiment of Word.
     
  13. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Disagreeing with you is not disrespecting you.

    As for the last bit about God leading people astray, well not only is it the biggest cop out I've seen in a while but if it were to be true then it says a great deal about god. Non of it particularly good.

    Look you started a thread asking what people's thoughts were on the Abrahamic God. People told you.

    I'll ask again. Show me God, show me the one thing that makes God God.

    I don't usually do this but I think it's warranted. Philosoraptor et al have the evolution side of things covered so I'll expound a little on my views.

    Starting with this.

    "The gods are all eternal scoundrels
    Incapable of dissolving the suffering of impermanence.
    Those who serve them and venerate them
    May even in this world sink into a sea of sorrow.
    We know the gods are false and have no concrete being;
    Therefore the wise man believes them not
    The fate of the world depends on causes and conditions
    Therefore the wise man may not rely on gods."

    Nagarjuna



    There are a number of problems with the idea of God and the attributes that are associated with him.
     
  14. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Thinking the world/universe is 7000 years old is rationally and scientifically untenable.
    We have linked the growth rings of ancient trees back further than that. By comparing the patterns in growth rings and overlapping those patterns from one tree to another you can walk back in time. I forget how far back this method goes but it's further back than 7000 years.
    Now that fact (one amongst many) should make anyone with an open mind reject young earth creationism.
     
  15. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    I'll just let you all take a look at this.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEnWw_lH4tQ"]The Holy Quran Experiment - YouTube[/ame]

    Enjoy your God. Personally if I ever meet him I'm going to punch him in the face.

    Sorry if that's a bit harsh, but you did ask.

    I like the this quote:

    I never believed in God until I realised I was God - J. Krishnamurti
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2015
  16. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    Philosorapture (lol) i request that you start a new thread regarding evolution.

    Where we post questions and explanations and DO NOT post videos (cos no one watches them).
     
  17. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    I watch videos, but then again I also look for references and evaluate what I see or read.
     
  18. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    This tells me that you have no argument and that you were hoping to do a "drive by" thread....when yoi got called out on yoir errors by vastly nore experienced people than you (and me too) you choose to walk away rather than learn and grow

    That is sad

    Science and belief need not be enemies and the obly tine they seem to be so is when belief argues against science even though science is demonstrably correct.....that is why zealotry flourishes and when things go badly wrong
     
  19. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Hannibal is either using his phone, or the mead is kicking in. :D

    Hic...
     
  20. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Or the mead is wearing off.....
     
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