What are the most important techniques in karate according to the kata?

Discussion in 'Karate' started by Moosey, Sep 12, 2011.

  1. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    I like the cut of your jib:)

    Mike
     
  2. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I rebel on that thought
     
  3. nekoashi

    nekoashi Valued Member

    What are we talking about here? Are we talking about instructing white belts or ordering the level of importance of technique?

    In my view, the only direction a white belt needs is to learn to listen to the instructor and do what the instructor shows them. Not that they are stupid, they are just incapable of executing advanced techniques until they master basic ones. You aren't going to have a white belt go out on the deck and perform Chinto, are you? You are going to have a white belt learn a basic kata and some basic moves. I haven't been a white belt in a very long time, are you seriously going to tell me a chudan zuki is more valuable than a foot sweep or backfist because it appears in a kata more often? That very idea is just silly to me.

    Once again think what I have said since the beginning of this thread makes as much sense in either situations. The only important technique is the one you are doing, Ken Zen Ichi Nyo.
     
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2011
  4. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    Are you seriously saying that ashi barai or uraken are more valuable than a punch?

    Punching is about the most versatile and easily taught technique available. Heck, the art of boxing bases an entire sport around it.

    Don't get me wrong, I like ashi barai, but punching is pretty much the key discipline of most of the striking arts.
     
  5. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Moosey, I think he is saying that you can't tell what techniques are more important than others based on the frequency they appear in kata. Importance of technique is independent of frequency of a particular technique in kata.

    For me, I'll think about this topic more. Frequency to me is not as important as context, principles, and what I call "short form" that demonstrates the principles in action. I'll post on my thoughts about this later.
     
  6. nekoashi

    nekoashi Valued Member

    No. What I am saying is that each technique is only important if it is the best one to apply at that moment in time within a fight. To me the only thing that ranks the importance of a technique is its utility at that moment in time. As I have said before, the only important technique is the one you are doing, Ken Zen Ichi Nyo. An elbow smash to the ribs is useless to me if I am only in kicking distance. A kick or punch is useless to me if I am too close in to apply either.
     
  7. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    So what's preventing you from using strategy to actually apply those? Some of the best fighters we know of had less than a handful of their "money makers", techniques that they were phenomenal at. In karate circles some people call them tokui waza (special techniques). They based their entire strategy around said techniques. This is a common thing in boxing as well, for instance say Rocky Marciano who had a killer right hook. Marciano adapted his entire game to be an infighter and destroy his opponents with that punch. Now, say Marciano was a karateka and found his system valid, so he decided to put all the principles, strategies, and techniques he found valuable into one package he could pass on to others. You now have the Marciano kata.

    This is why in times past you would only learn a handful of kata, as those kata fit your personal fighting style and helped you best implement your best technique(s). Yes, other techniques are still valid, but the importance of techniques emphasized in a particular kata cannot be overlooked.
     
  8. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    Its a reasonable hypothesis that techniques that are repeated often throughout the whole body of kata are particularly important ones. However, there’s at least one other option that should be considered - homogenisation.

    When you look at older versions of the kata, some of the movements are not as ubiquitous as you might think. Funakoshi’s self-confessed simplification of the kata involved a degree of homogenisation. It seems that sometimes movements were modified to be the same as similar-ish movements already in the Shotokan canon. Or if the movement didn’t fit Funakoshi’s criteria it might even be replaced by a completely different move of his choosing.
    In Passai Sho as I practise it there is no manji kamae. I don’t practice jion and jitte, these are not common kata in Shorin Ryu systems as far as I can determine. I did find some Kyudokan Shorin versions on youtube, where I can see a manji kamae in jion but not in jitte.

    This move is the classic Funakoshi modification itself. It never existed before Funakoshi, and is his re-imaging of low block and simultaneous front kick (to the side). However, its not found in Passai Sho. The Heians we already know are just re-imaging of pre-existing kata, so that only leaves one in that list – Kanku. However, the examples found in the Heians do further demonstrate the point about homogenisation – in Heian Nidan & Yondan they’re basically the same move but as I’ve learnt them they’re actually slightly different techniques in different kata.

    So sometimes the repetition of certain moves across different kata is just an artefact of modern standardisation rather than a statement about the effectiveness or relative importance of those moves. But that still leaves some degree of unexplained repetition in pre-modern kata. The only logical explanation for that IMO is that the originator(s) of each kata considered those moves to be important. It may be that each kata originator didn’t consider them more or less important than other moves. But those particular moves seem to have been considered important by a number of different kata originators (working on the assumption that different kata were largely developed by different people).

    Mike
     
  9. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Well said Mike Flanagan. :cool:

    Damn now I don't know what to post about. :mad:
     
  10. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    Good point. I can see how it would occur.

    Just out of interest, when I searched for shorin ryu passai sho on youtube, the guy did what I would call bassai dai. Is it one of those heian shodan/pinan nidan things?

    That's one of the points I was trying to get at - whether there are repetitions across different kata because some moves are so useful that everyone with a style of karate picked up on them and included them in their kata.
     
  11. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    re: shorin-ryu passai/bassai, some do older versions like what in ****o-ryu is called matsumura bassai and tomari bassai, and call them bassai-dai, while having the itosu bassai-dai incorporated as a second, calling it bassai-sho because it is newer. otoh, schools that have both itosu no passai kata call them dai and sho (shotokan, ****o-ryu, for example) and when other variants are present, they're called by their variant name (matsumura, tomari, ishimine, chibana, etc).

    if you hbave the time and inclination, look for my old thread "itosu's kata shenanigans: life and times of bassai dai". i posted a truckload of passai/bassai variants in the OP, some of which are quite interesting.
     
  12. nekoashi

    nekoashi Valued Member

    Remember what I said about you trying to force your view upon me? Prove it, or it is just a theory of yours. There is nothing wrong with developing a theory, but don't put it forth like you have as truth until it is proved.

    From my view, my statement that the only important move is the one you are doing applies just as well to those you mention above. Rocky Marciano may have had a killer right hook, but it was of no importance when he was delivering a left or right jab or ducking out of the way of a punch and those techniques were no less or more important to his fight than any other. Even a single pawn can determine a win or a loss for you at chess and a poorly delivered left jab could have cost Marciano the match. At the end of the day, you can only bring to bear the techniques you can deliver at that moment.

    I can only speak from my view, which was obviously formed by my instructors through the years and what I have read. I have read a fair amount about karate and I have never once come across your theory. That doesn't mean it is invalid in anyway. However, to me it just remains a theory from someone on a chat board that I don't know.

    I study in a school that is directly connected to Shosin Nagamine and many of the sensei I have trained under through the years were his students or students of his students. Many have made it a point to say that the only technique that matters is the one you are using and not once in his book does he point to any technique as being more important than the next. So I can emphatically say that without a shadow of a doubt in my mind (unless I seriously misunderstood my teachers), in the Matsubayashi Ryu system of karate, all moves are of equal importance.

    We drill basics a lot, even as advanced students. However, that doesn't make them any more important than advanced techniques. I see them as foundational techniques that when practiced we also practice other more advanced techniques. Someone punches me and I use a chest block to block it. I could catch their arm and suddenly they are in an arm bar with the same technique. The moment the punch comes in, the only thing that is important is my stopping that punch from hurting me. If I break his arm with the technique, great but that is in the next moment. If I am able to trap his arm and throw him with it, great but that is in the next moment. The only important technique is the one I am using at that moment.

    I really can't speak to other styles and I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this point.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2011
  13. nekoashi

    nekoashi Valued Member

    Here is Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu's Passai:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqgWBezNBIw"]Matsubayashi Ryu - Passai - YouTube[/ame]
     
  14. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    yup, that would be the tomari version, present in ****o-ryu as tomari no passai. other shorin schools have the matsumura version as a main passai, which is very similar but mostly with closed fists.
     
  15. nekoashi

    nekoashi Valued Member

    Have a good vid of that other version?
     
  16. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

  17. nekoashi

    nekoashi Valued Member

  18. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

  19. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    I understand where you are coming from, but I fundamentally disagree with this. I would say this is a backwards way of looking at the fight and at the technique as opposed to studying fights, drawing conclusions and training appropriately. There is a degree of wisdom in the saying, but it is faux wisdom, because it is based upon ignorance.

    I would say that techniques are only important if they are employable in the fight, regardless of whether they are the optimum technique at the time (because the funny thing about repeated pressure training is you see that the proverbial can and does hit the fan no matter how good your basics are).

    To me what ranks the importance of a technique is the probability of its usefulness, which will in turn depend upon how well it is designed according to the principles of low maintenance, adrenaline tolerance, multiplicity, transferable skills, unbalancing, unbalancing, minimizing the risk of harm (defender), effectiveness, efficiency, ease, initiative taking and (if we are talking about Karate as a self defence art as opposed to a combative sport) haov relevance.

    A core principle of any decent fighting system is that it drills the techniques that are deemed most useful more than any that are less likely to be used, and it should ditch the ones that do not work. Kata are often referred to as the core of a Karate system. It is not an unreasonable supposition therefore to see the numerical frequency of certain techniques as an indication of their believed usefulness to the originators of those segments of the Kata, since Karate Kata are just solo rehearsals combative drills lumped together according to principles, whim, and personal fighting preferences.
     
  20. lma

    lma Valued Member

    Gaden bari (my English spelling is shocking so don't even start on my Japanese) is most used move in my dojo. I haven't thought about if there is a reason behind this though. hmm.....
     

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