What are both the pros and cons of training in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by thegoodguy, May 20, 2018.

  1. thegoodguy

    thegoodguy Valued Member

    I often read some people saying that Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is not a recommended martial art because of its lack of sparring or testing the techniques against resisting opponents. That would imply that you never know whether you'll be able to make the techniques work under pressure in a real fight or not...
     
  2. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Yeah, that pretty much sums it up.
     
  3. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Sparring is how you learn to refine technique, and understand timing and decision making in real time.

    Without that, all your left with are trick moves, so as long as there's good "quality control" that's something......


    Ps the Buj are well known for terrible quality control.
     
  4. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    If you want to learn how to fight, you have to fight.
     
  5. bassai

    bassai onwards and upwards ! Moderator Supporter

    You've pretty much summed it up in your opening post , when I dabbled in it the teacher nodded towards sparring type training but was somewhat hamstrung by the general training methodology of the org.
    My best description would be Aikidoish techniques mixed with sub par striking , I honestly believe the style could have some potential if they tightened up their training methodology and cut the "syllabus" , as it is , in half.
     
  6. thegoodguy

    thegoodguy Valued Member

    I guess one typical excuse ( I don't mean just the Bujinkan but some other martial arts schools as well ) for refusing to incorporate sparring with resisting opponents is that "the techniques are dangerous". The solution for that I think might be wearing the best protection gear possible to reduce the risk of someone getting serioulsy injured.

    And as to the old schools included in the Bujinkan syllabus, I don't know if maybe in the past the training was different and with all-out sparring included. Perhaps Hatsumi and his training partners were the last generation who trained under the old school method.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2018
  7. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    Anyone ever seen Hatsumi fight?
     
  8. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Outside of Judo probably not
     
  9. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    He's a ninja, so you know you're never supposed to SEE him fight.
     
    Monkey_Magic, Mitch, Mitlov and 2 others like this.
  10. thegoodguy

    thegoodguy Valued Member

    hahaha. That was funny. Thanks for the laugh
     
  11. thegoodguy

    thegoodguy Valued Member

    Although this video has nothing to do with Bujinkan however I guess bujinkan practitioners ( in the case that is the only art they train at ) should watch it in order to rethink their training approach:

     
  12. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    Arguably Judo is the result of a traditional martial art that recognised the problems of not sparring and so codified a set of rules that allowed vigorous sparring while limiting the risk of serious injury.

    There are a number of techniques that are now banned in competition because they are unacceptably dangerous. lifting and dumping the opponent from mount. scissor take-downs etc. there are a number of techniques that were unacceptably dangerous and were never included. e.g various outside throws that dislocate the arm during the throw. Their are a number of applications that are banned because they cause unacceptable injury. Thumbs in eyes for example.

    Good technique will always beat random violence. But directed violence combined with good technique is a practical force multiplayer.
     
  13. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Great video, thanks for posting it!
     
  14. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    I thought it was a terrible video, because it starts with the premise and assumption that people in traditional arts don't spar and don't know what it's like to take a punch until they step outside of their art. There are traditional schools that spar and those that don't. There are modern schools that sort, and those that don't ( ie, some krav maga schools, etc). The problems he's talking about are not-sparring problems, not TMA problems.

    Also, I think it's arrogant and inaccurate for him to claim that "most" striking arts turn into "bad boxing" when they spar.
     
  15. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Perhaps. Although it becomes immediately obvious that he means "arts that don't spar" as opposed to TMA.

    Also his comment about bad boxing applied to martial artists that don't spar, not ones that do. As we all know, you can keep an aesthetic similarity to your style if you practice it like that. Muay Thai, loads of forms of karate, Sanda etc etc
     
    Knee Rider likes this.
  16. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    How do you know that's what he really meant? Because that's not what he said. At all.

    He very clearly said he was bashing "traditional martial arts," when he just as easily could have titled the video "when people who don't spar, spar" and complained ad nauseum about people who don't spar. It wouldn't be any harder to make a video about "people who don't spar." He instead chose to make a video about "traditional martial artists."

    Also, remember that he publishes instructional videos online and even sells paid online tutorials. You want to talk about people who don't pressure-test, let's talk about martial artists who sell instructional videos to people they've never met in person. His business' facebook page is the 21st-century version of "learn martial arts from a book," complete with:

     
    David Harrison likes this.
  17. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I think you've got a good point, but I also see where Stephan is coming from: lots of people who started in compliant training and then moved to live training have an "ex-smoker" outlook on the arts they did before.

    I have been disappointed at the direction of his "self-defence" channel though. Double stick combos for self-defence? Hmmm...
     
    Dunc and Knee Rider like this.
  18. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    He started in judo...not exactly compliant training.

    I also question whether we can justify him tarring all TMAs as purely compliant as just him venting from a bad experience...when he's not just venting on a message board but instead is making that claim on a commercial channel to help him sell more online training courses.

    And finally, I'd like to re-emphasize that I don't think someone who tells people that they can learn BJJ from watching youtube videos and grappling with a friend, with zero in-person instruction, should be casting stones about teaching methodologies.

    I think that online training has a potentially huge role in the era of the internet. It’s something that I offer myself, both in my free sites like www.grapplearts.com and www.beginningbjj.com, and as a premium service on www.grapplearts.tv.

    Obviously it’s super useful if you don’t have a formal instructor. If you’re NOT training at a school, then the critical thing about online learning is that you make sure you’re also sparring regularly. So long as people train hard and spar regularly they can learn a LOT from online resources.

    10 Questions with Stephan Kesting
     
    Dan Bian likes this.
  19. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    He specifically mentioned his Kung Fu training in the video.
     
  20. Mitlov

    Mitlov Shiny

    That's not where he started. He dabbled in a half dozen arts between judo (where he started) and BJJ (where he ended up). So somewhere in there he trained at one particular kung fu school didn't spar. Yeah, that's bad. But with his resume, I can't take his attacks as well-intentioned venting of someone who"started in compliant training and then moved to live training have an 'ex-smoker' outlook on the arts they did before." From his 2011 Combative Corner interview linked above:

    I recently came across a letter I’d written when I was 7 years old. In this letter I demanded that my parents let me go to go to Judo and that I would go on strike if I couldn’t go.

    It took another 5 years of cajoling until I actually stepped foot into Frank Hatashita’s famous Judo dojo on Queen Street in Toronto. Since that day I’ve pretty much trained in one martial art after another, including Japanese Judo, Indonesian Silat, Russian Sambo, various Chinese Kung Fu systems, Brazilian Capoeira, Muay Thai Kickboxing, and many other martial arts.

    I’m now a Brazilian Jiu-jitsu black belt under Marcus Soares and a certified instructor in Erik Paulson’s Combat Submission Wrestling. I’m also a black belt in Kajukenbo Karate, an instructor in Dan Inosanto’s Jun Fan JKD, Maphalindo Silat and Filipino Martial Arts program.
     
    David Harrison likes this.

Share This Page