Western Fencing is it the Most Superior

Discussion in 'Weapons' started by Jimmy Jitsu, May 8, 2005.

  1. Kakita Aiguchi

    Kakita Aiguchi New Member

    I didn't think of the "Martial Sport" term, so I used the "Modern" western fencing definition to talk about the sport, and not what we call here in Italy "Hystorical Fencing". I surely know about Fiore and most of his great colleagues... great masters who left us some splendid essays on sword fighting.
    Anyway, I didn't write my reply from that point of view because I'm not an expert of most of the weapons you listed (especially the two-handed ones), so I just spoke about my branch of western fencing (a sport).
    Thanks for your welcome, Wyn, I'm currently practicing with the foil too (in Italy to become a judge for national competitions you must be proficient with all three weapons), but I'm not very good with that... too "hardcore" for me! XD
    Something I like about the epee is that bouts usually last longer and you have time to prepare, think and wait to study your opponent's feints, movement and footwork. Just for sake of curiosity... are you left or right-handed?
     
  2. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    Touche; isn't that what you dudes say? -Well I was rather thinking about the Kendo vs. Kenjutsu and the Chanbara-threads going on. If Kakita Aiguchi were to encounter some streethugs holding ironbars twohanded, in a backalley and he saw a light ash stick roughly 80 cm long, and picked it up for defence, I think he'd have fared slightly better than if someone not versed in FIE did the same in the same situation, but I recognize that Kakita Aiguchi and you probably know much more about that than I (since you actually train that stuff), and if you think otherwize, they you're probably right :rolleyes:

    I wish to change that!!!

    Well the way you started defining WMA, I felt compelled to arrest you slightly, so that me and Fiore don't have to keep standing in FIE's shadow forever :)
     
  3. Wynnston

    Wynnston Member

    Sorry, I'm not aware of those other threads - guess I was asleep :rolleyes: . I would also like to think I have the edge over someone who's never done any weapons training but I reckon FIE fencing only really trains you for quick, light hit, long range stuff. If one of said thugs waded in and weathered a few blows from my 80cm ash stick and got hold of me - I'm a gonna :eek:. Hopefully a few quick pokes from the stick, before they could see it coming, would make them think that going any further would be bad for them :D


    Quite right and good luck with it - hopefully we can see the sort of stuff you do at a MAP meet sometime :D

    Kakita Aiguchi, I'm right handed - what about you? I have done epee as well as foil but I generally find it a bit slow and get too frustrated, try a few foil moves and oh dear I've been hit on the finger again! However, I think it's the one weapon that's best suited to comparisons to MA's as it has simple rules; hit anywhere and none of that right of way nonsense ;)
     
  4. Kakita Aiguchi

    Kakita Aiguchi New Member

    I'm right-handed, but I wield the epee as a lefty. When I started, I was practicing with my right hand, but then after about a month or two at most my teacher suggested to try with the other hand and I noticed that my aim was a lot better, as well as most parries, so I bought some new grips and switched hand for the better.

    Quite common... most epee pratictioners favor wrist or hand hits and with the foil those parts are often exposed. It's also funny when someone who's proficient with the epee tries the foil... you watch your opponent's distance, judge his stance and feints, try a feint, then he suddenly jumps in, you try to land a stop-hit on his shoulder or forearm, he sweeps your blade away and lands a hit on your back. Very discouraging.
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2005
  5. TheCount

    TheCount Happiness is a mindset

    I think if they adapted their style a lot of Western Fencers could match a jap
     
  6. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    Edited for your convenience.
     
  7. Anth

    Anth Daft. Supporter

    ap O - following on from your post...

    Count - not wise to call Japanese "Japs" ;)
     
  8. Wynnston

    Wynnston Member

    Ambidextrous huh, very impressive.

    When a foilist trys that in an epee fight and it that works it's even more fun!! What usually happens though is that I try it and then get hit on the hand/finger/wrist/foot/knee. A lot of competitive fencers only stick to one weapon as they reckon doing more than one makes them worse at their dominant weapon. Might be an idea to try them all fairly soon and then see which one you really like.
     
  9. javyn99

    javyn99 New Member

    these thinly veiled "my culture is better than yours" arguments are so stupid. i could pick up a brick, toss it, and kill both the samurai and the fencing master with it. whats the point of arguing about this? imo if you want to train with the best, most practical weapon, train with a knife or a stick. or better yet, if you live somewhere that still values the freedom to defend yourself, carry a pistol.
     
  10. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    Which ones do you refer to? If you read thinly veiled needs of saying that ones coulture is better than others into the arguments, I cannot help you. I cannot speak for all implicated either, but I can assure you that I don't believe that my culture (as in WMA) is better than EMA.

    I guess you could; I don't know how good you are at tossing bricks... -but who's launching veiled statements that oneselves techniques are better than others' now? ;)

    If you insist on veiling going on, I'd say that this is a veiled arena for discussing differences and similarities between WMA and EMA :Angel:

    Well we probably could, but haven't it occured to you that this isn't a thread about the best, most practical weapon, and that it neither adress which contries that value ones freedom to defend oneself the best either? :p
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2005
  11. Kakita Aiguchi

    Kakita Aiguchi New Member

    Bah, don't feed the troll.
     
  12. Pinoy_Kendoka

    Pinoy_Kendoka New Member

    I think Kendo is more superior than western fencing because..

    Kendo is somewhat almost related to kenjutsu. Kendo has more target areas that fencing does which is the wrists, the head, and the sides, and thrusting to the neck. In kendo, the shinai is not the only weapon used, but a weapon called the "Bokken" is used and it is shaped exactly as a katana. You can actually cut a arm or a head off with a bokken if you tried really hard. Also, kendo has more dimentions, instead of just fighting in a line you have more space. Kendo was also known for speed, technique, and skill too, and kendo bogu(armor) was more durable and stronger, and covers more parts of the body than fencing armor. Kendo has slashes, blocks, chops, slices, and thrusts to the neck which can be dangerous.

    The katana i think was used when kendo was first invented many years ago in japan but caused deaths and serious injuries. The katana is made really sharp, or sharper than any western sword. I have seen some videos and documentarys of someone shooting a pistol at a katana, and the katana ends up slicing the bullets in half. In kendo, you also have to be really agressive, and you use loud shouts during fights and there is also lots of strength and cunning speed added and aggressive rage.

    So then again, If there were a fight between a fencer and a kendoka, the kendoka would move to more different areas that a fencer could not, and could hit more areas of the fencers body. A fencer with a foil would be useless for blocking, and the shinaii will just hit the foil and the foil would bend alot. The fencer could also not see the kendoka's foot movements because of the kendoka's hakama, as the kendoka can see the fencer's legs. There are many things unmatched too, but kendo is more superior and if a kendoka had used a boken in a battle agaist a fencer, the bokken could hurt more and have more power.

    Even if the fencer had switched to epee or saber, it would almost be evenly matched, but the kendoka can still have some ways to change the wave of the battle, although the epee and saber and stronger than the foil, they could also be no match in a sword fight, since the katana is extremely sharp, it could cut those in half, and with the training of Iaido, a fencer could be killed in 1 hit. Iaido is about killing or hitting someone right when the sword is taken out, like 1 hit kills. The iaito which is used in Iaido is also strong, and stronger than the epee and saber and can do some serious damage and good technique.


    I say Kendo/Kenjutsu/iaido is more superior than western fencing/european fencing.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2005
  13. KSprenk

    KSprenk be

    My bro does fencing and we have some nice conversations. I would go with the jap because in fencing you cannot move from a straight line, meaning the opponent is always directly in front of you. I have watched some matches of fencing and theydont use killing strikes, it is a sport. Even my bro has admitted that.
     
  14. onyomi

    onyomi 差不多先生

    I am biased because I only do Chinese swordplay, but it seems to me that the jian is the most highly-refined of those weapons in discussion. Western fencing is very good and has the major advantage of constant sparring in its usual practice, but I think it has become too "sportified" in recent years. For example, because of the idea that it is a "first blood weapon," in western epee, if both competitors hit each other in the same movement the point is awarded to the one who hit first. But, for one thing, if I hit you and you also hit me half a second later, will we really be willing to decide the fight based on whose blood starts to pour out first? More importantly, doesn't this encourage a very dangerous mentality? If both contestants hit each other then no points should be awarded because you are both dead. The point of fencing is to wound or kill the other guy while avoiding getting hurt yourself. Also, I hate the way western fencing is practiced on a straight line. I know the design of the weapon and the nature of the style may lend themselves to primarily back-and-forth type exchanges, but nonetheless, it can't be denied that real fights take place in 3 dimensions.

    Kendo is also very good in that the movements seem fast and powerful and the real samurai swords are also probably the sharpest in the world. Nonetheless, it seems to me to lack finesse as compared to the jian. Someone who had been practicing kendo for 3 years could probaby beat someone who had been practicing jian for 3 years, but I think someone who had been practicing jian for 10 years would win against someone practicing kendo for 10 years. In other words, the jian is really hard to master but becomes unbelievably nimble and versatile once you do. Just my 2 cents. :)

    Also, I know it might just be for the sake of brevity, but please don't refer to the Japanese as "the Japs." It smacks of rascist WWII era propaganda.
     
  15. Cudgel

    Cudgel The name says it all

    erm id jsut liek to point out that it is somewhat impossible to cut a limb off with a club, which is what a bokken is.

    And yes a bullet can be cut in half by a katana, but that is because the sword is made of a metal that is much harder than the bullet, and after something like 7 shots the sword broke. And I dont even wanna touch the subject of cutting another sword with a katana, regardless of whater it is a sporting tool used for modern fencing> they are still made of a tempered steel and there would not be a enough resistance to teh strie to alow it to be cut or borken, the persons hand would would move if a stirke was delat with enough force that is could conceivable cut or break it.

    And it relaly doesnt matter if you can or cannot see the other guys feet or legs, you shouldnt be looking there, the feet arent holding the sword.
     
  16. Chris Umbs

    Chris Umbs New Member

    We're really going to have to define what "Western fencing' is if we want to have a discussion. Are we just talking about sport fencing or styles like rapier and dagger?
     
  17. Anth

    Anth Daft. Supporter

    Cut an arm or a head off with a stick? I think you are somewhat mistaken on that. At most (and with a canny clout) you will cause broken bones and bruising (concussion if you go for the head), not a cut. To cut with a bokken, you would need to sharpen it along the edge. Problem with this is that it will make the bokken weaker as you are removing material. You try to cut with this sharpened bokken, you end up with a broken bokken.

    As Cudgel mentioned, there is a very good reason for this: the bullets are made of lead, a soft metal. Again as Cudgel mentioned, the sword broke after 7 shots from a Browning .50 cal machine gun. Not because of the bullets, but because of the shear velocity of the rounds.

    I dont know much about either art, but I can guess as to why this is the case. My guess is that its due to the styles being very different (read back through this thread). The foil is a point weapon, and (forgive me if I am wrong) fencers parry with the foil, rather than "hard blocking", to go for the thrust (touch the oponents foil out of the way).

    Surely if a weapon hurts more, it requires more control so as to not seriously injure the oponent (in a training/sparring environment rather than an open fight)?

    I suggest you do a search of MAP on this topic. It is one of the "legends" of katanas that they can cut through anything, even another sword or a rifle (there is a new thread by slipthejab on this subject).

    I am not an Iaido-ka, but I was always under the impression that Iaido was a kata/form-based style with no sparring (maybe Aegis can confirm?). If this is so, even with the majority of techniques aiming to kill, I dont think an Iaido-ka would battle against a fencer ;)
     
  18. KSprenk

    KSprenk be

    the only reason I used the word Jap was for an abbreviation.
     
  19. soon

    soon New Member

  20. KSprenk

    KSprenk be

    Yeah i have read both of those before, and he made some good points. But I still go with the japanese swordsman.
     

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