Western and eastern sword comparisons

Discussion in 'Weapons' started by koyo, May 14, 2007.

  1. Louie

    Louie STUNT DAD Supporter

    Hi Koyo...

    You would all be most welcome to pop-in to the Duellists' venue in Partick on Sunday, as previously mentioned in my post to the Bear, the classes are not long started and we are a bit short on practice gear at the moment so hopefully that won't put you all off before you've had time to experience it properly. (Although the group was formed before the summer, we ended up being barred from the venue until they had completed a safety assessment, needless to say that held us up for a while).
    George Davidson is the man taking Longsword, hopefully when the group is more established we will look into a variety of other western weapons....
    My own experience has been in the research of Scottish broadsword/singlestick, the Highland dirk (including the Dirk Dance), medieval dagger and unarmed combat. I am pretty sure that Scots trained with and had access to German Longsword instructors and manuals which is probably the method they used with the hand & half claymore....

    Some of my research has recently been published in this paladin book on Highland Knife Fighting.....
    www.paladin-press.com/detail.aspx?ID=1491

    Hopefully see you there....
    Cheers!!!
    Louie
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2007
  2. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Ho Louie

    I spoke to the boys and as far as I know three are coming to your class on sunday. All are dan grades in aikido and have experience in aiki ken and jo (sword and stick) Their interest is in learning german longsword or anything you can teach them.
    Hopefully I shall make it along to introduce them to you. Good and respectfull guys all.

    regards koyo
     
  3. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Hi Koyo,
    I will be there anyway. So I will keep and eye out for them.

    The Bear.
     
  4. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Good onya. Look after Chris he is only a boy. :)

    regards koyo
     
  5. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    They have swords bigger than him there. :)

    The Bear.
     
  6. Louie

    Louie STUNT DAD Supporter

    Hi all...
    Just thought I'd point out that it's only adult classes at the moment, apologies to Chris if he's more than a 'boy'

    Louie
     
  7. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    Holy Crap!

    That's what I'd like for the Calgary chapter of the AES... some additional serious MAists with experience. Maybe some hardcore Budo or Pankration guys. Combine that with some raw beginners and I'd be a happy man. :)

    -Mark
     
  8. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Did I metion that two of them are cool guitarists. That would make you happy.

    regards koyo :D
     
  9. Polar Bear

    Polar Bear Moved on

    Ha, it's ok Louie it's a running joke between koyo and myself.
    Chris, old enough and capable enough to look after himself.

    The Bear.
     
  10. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Yep Chris will be able to handle anything you throw at him. I know he can handle anything I throw him at. :) :)

    regards koyo

    Langenswert

    Found these photos showing bind and fold into a throw. Will try to find empty hand example.

    regards koyo
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Aug 26, 2007
  11. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Found this. The bind can be used for a lock or throw but in this case an atemi. I am sure the sword principles shall be clear to you. My left handblade is suppressing his left preventing a block.

    regards koyo
     

    Attached Files:

  12. Kogusoku

    Kogusoku 髭また伸びた! Supporter

    Plant your left foot on his right instep and you have a nice ankle break there too when he goes down.
     
  13. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

     
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2007
  14. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Hi Mark

    Yes it is a bokken. He is attempting to step around to my left and the intent on my part is to cut through him to the kuzushi. His momentum and the proper angle of entry on my part makes it effective.
    So sad that I just do not have the time to attend the western sword classes.I cannot do things by half.We may get together again some time to exchange ideas.There is an open invitation between us.

    regards koyo
     
  15. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    Neither can I. I train like a madman most days when I have time. The same thing with music... I was practicing bass for 4-8 hours a day at one point. :)

    Best regards,

    -Mark
     
  16. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    I was fascinated by the German Longsword and it's application. But I have little time for those who profess to be masters of numerous arts feeling that each and every art is a lifelong experience. Thankfully this does not stop me learning or verifying what I feel from other arts.

    regards koyo

    WE have a russian gentleman sharing our dojo now , Vadim he teaches Sambo wrestling, and guess what?...He plays guitar.However I have the edge when it comes to rock and roll cos I was there when it started. Come to think of it I have the edge in
    LOCK and roll too for the same reason. :D
     
  17. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Thought I should post this picture. I am showing Hiro Fujisawa a "real sword" also took him to see William Wallaces claymore. He was really impressed.East meets West.

    regards koyo
     

    Attached Files:

  18. Archibald

    Archibald A little koala

    I heard that William Wallace's claymore, despite its size, weighs very very little...is that true koyo? I have a friend from scotland who saw it and he said it was mighty impressive :)

    And maybe someone can answer this for me....I once asked a medievil re-enactment enthusiast how they fought with such giant swords, and he told me when two army's were running at each other, you'd take the biggest sword you could and just swing it through people until it broke or you dropped it, THEN you would draw your small sword and start actually swordfighting..........any truth to that? It sounds plausible...

    If it is true, is there an eastern equivelant for that kind of 'cut til it breaks' sword?
     
  19. Louie

    Louie STUNT DAD Supporter

    Hi Archibald...

    The Wallace sword is 167.6 cm (66") long, (the average man of the Wallace era was about 5' 7" and they had no problems wielding larger swords). The blade might have been longer, and may have been repaired in two places. It is 132 cm (52"), being 57 mm (2.25") at the base. The total weight is 2.72 kg (6 lbs.).
    The hilt isn't the original but it is believed that at least the blade once belonged to Wallace's sword although there is no conclusive proof. Only The fact that the sword was kept and preserved in the same place for hundreds of years, suggests that it just might have been used by him.

    Louie
     
  20. Stolenbjorn

    Stolenbjorn Valued Member

    Remember that medieval re-enacters can be pretty much anything from ex-hippies finding a new meaning of life in re-enactment, via actors out of missions, to the historical interrested (and even the odd WMA-interrested...), so in general, when you seek answers from re-enacters, and they come up with bombastic answers without moderations, be sure you don't believe everything you hear. I've heard a lot of garbage from re-enacters.
    (I'm a re-enacter myself, so I should know what I talk about :rolleyes: :p ;) )

    As for the clam itself, it's the first time I hear it, and it sounds like just another of those self-invented theories from re-enacters that are not founded on any shred of historical/archaeological proof. I know that re-enacters fight for show, not for real, and I allso know that re-enacters do a lot more of parrying than WMA'ers, simply because it's safer from a show-point of wiew(deflections tend to make the sword end up in a third-party's face, etc), and because it makes a lot of noise (sword on sword makes fine bangs).

    What it of course alls do is making a lot of strain on the swords, and so, it isn't hard for a re'enacter that does light swings and still gets his sword nick'ed/dented to theoretisize that the swords would break if they banged them full force together. (I don't think they did edge-on-edge-parries for real, and therefore I find the theory somewhat based on the wrong grounding. That doesn't mean that it could not be true. Several sources talks about swords breaking/bending in combat, but from that to say that you had a "baseballbat-sword" that you flailed randomly about until it broke, and then started "fencing" is to stretch those sources pretty long. IMHO, they might have brought more than one sword, in case one broke, but they would't wield them any differently.)

    Knights brought allways more than one weapon to a fight, it was rather like with modern golf-clubs, with several clubs in the bag. Somthing I have from a history book is that a 13th century italian knight, going on a campagin had somthing like 4 personal servants/squiers/guards and 6 horses with him!
    When you add the fact that a lance usually breaks on impact (not just the housting ones), maces/warhammers are better against armed opponents and swords are both a nobility-status-symbol and efficiant at smithing unarmed opponents tells us that a knight probably had at least:
    *a sword
    *a cavallery-sword/longsword
    *another sword (ceremonial/status)
    *some lances + some shorter spears for throwing/close combat
    *dagger
    *mace/warhammer


    For the zweihenders, over 1m40 cm up to 1m.80 cm, that are from the 16th and 17th century, we're not entirely sure how they were used, but there is an old thread on this or the WMA-subforum about them that links to some intteresting manuscripts, the goliath-manuscript, for instance.

    Two of the theories I both find plausible and are based on some historical sources/manuals, are theese:
    A: Entering into close-play/halfswording or binding of opponents' hellebards/pikes in tight formation, making it easier for your comerades to pick undefended targets with their own pikes and creating a breech in the opponents front rank(s). This meant that you had to step out of your units first rank, into the neutral ground, making you stick out and beeing an easy target for the opponents pikes with longer range than your zweihender. Historical accounts that supports this theory, are the combat-manuals themselves, that shows people with longsword in allmost as much armor as knights on horse, mabye as much as 40 kgs, and historical accounts that indicates that zweihender-landsknechts were given a higher salary than their pike-wielding comerades

    B: As a sentry-weapon, both intimidating, and effective. There's hardly any weapon that have as many uses as a zweihender; it can be used as a warhammer, as a sword, as a pike and as an axe.

    I've allso heard about people saying that zweihenders were for cutting horses and pikes. As for the first one, I find it pretty wierd to use so much resources on making a weapon that were meant to cut a horse, when a pike/spear is much cheaper, kills a horse easier and at a safer (longer) range to a lower price....

    As for the pikecutting-thing, it fits with the "A", but I know that you cannot cut a pike-shaft easily -even with an axe, much less so with a flexible sword. The pikes were often allso protected with metal far way down the shaft as well.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2007

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