Extra long swords were not all that popular in japanese culture. The naginata (imagine a sword blade on the end of a pole) would be more in evidence. Battles tended to begin with an exchange of arrows, charges used mainly the spear and close in melle would be naginata. The sword was not as popular as many would think for battlefield use. And samurai would take more than one sword in case of breakage or blunting.The sword would come into it's own in individual challenges. regards koyo
Rubbish. Swords were expensive. Anything you hear with regards to medieval and renaissance MA from a re-enactor who doesn't also study WMA/HES is most likely crap. Take it with a pound of salt. Or more. A greatsword is a fearsome weapon (of course, so are the longsword and zweihander), and its use requires refined and sophisticated technique. Knights trained from youth in MA... they're not going to use "baseball bat" technique. It makes no sense whatsoever. Yes, weapons could fail in combat, in which case draw another one. But you don't throw them away like kleenex. Best regards, -Mark
The reasons why naginata was out phased by the yari are numerous. 1.Naginata were expensive to forge. 2.Naginata took a considerable amount of time to learn how to use proficiently. 3.You could't fight with naginata in closed rank, since large sweeping cuts were utilized. 4.Yari were cheaper to manufacture than naginata. 5.Teach a conscript farmer five or six thrusts over a period of a month and he's good to go. 6. Yari enabled footsoldiers to fight in closed rank in melee, which meant they were more effective en masse.
Thanks guys, nice replies If you haven't guessed, I know very little about European swordsmanship...that's why I'm clearing things up here. Good to see this discussion still going!
And only if they had access to classical greek texts they would have figured this one out a couple of millennia ago. Mind you the Japanese were the first to use musket volley fire. They only had muskets five minutes and figured that one out. It's a funny old world. The Bear.
Hi Al Here is the sword comparison thread you asked about on the Celtic exchange thread.I do not know how to post a link to it so I have opened it for you. Celtic exchange was excellent in that it allowed us to actually experience much of what is discussed on this thread. regards koyo
Sorry for the thread necromancy...blame it on Koyo! It was his idea There's a lot to work through in this thread...I'm going to be taking it a bit at a time over the next few days. Yep, with the exception of some of the craziness you sometimes see in a hotly-contested point, I think this one definitely applies to modern fencing. Watch Nishida's footwork. Always ready to move forward or back equally; the off-hand movement is used to counterbalance the weapon hand and torso movement, to help minimize loss of balance and overextension. Most other fencers exhibit the same virtues and principles, but Nishida's footwork is just particularly crisp and pretty. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAPenBwwuo0"]YouTube- Beijing 2008 - MEI - L64 - Nishida JPN v Inostroza CHI - 1 of 2[/ame] There are the occasional exceptions. Sanzo, if he wasn't in the Olympics, would strike me as someone who didn't know how to fence, as his stance is so awkward. I've never seen anything like it. But hey, somehow it works, and he has four medals from three Olympic games to prove it. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3MB_lWNU94"]YouTube- Beijing 2008 - MFI - L4 - Sanzo ITA v Ota JPN - 1 of 3[/ame] Solely from a modern fencing perspective, the answer is no...but you're not going to knock someone over with a foil, epee, or sabre, no matter how you hit them, and you're not allowed to grapple, so it's just not something that comes up. Jumping ahead to Langenschwert's post at #68... This is only true in epee. In foil and sabre, right-of-way rules require you to (1) be in control of the blades when you strike, or (2) be the only one to land a blow for a significant length of time (0.3 seconds in foil, if I recall correctly). Cliff's notes for right-of-way, with the caveat that I've primarily trained epee and I'm still learning RoW. First person to initiate an attack has RoW. You maintain right-of-way until (1) you finish the attack (retracting the hand, half-step back, or even just setting the front foot down under certain circumstances), or (2) your opponent takes away RoW with a successful parry. Once they've parried the blade, they have RoW and you need to get it back, get out of town, or land the only on-target strike during a 0.3-second-period. The classic example of this third category is a sabreur's stop-cut while retreating to an attacker's arm. He doesn't have RoW, but he can get the cut and get out of range with a very good chance of "locking the opponent out" (i.e., the time for the attacker to land a successful blow runs out, and the scoring machine will not illuminate a second light). Lopez is a true master of the retreating stop-cut, scoring a point in sabre without RoW. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zyf-nu8o5h0"]YouTube- Lopez's Counterattacks[/ame] (the first minute of the video) Except for that scenario, though, foil and sabre generally require RoW to successfully score a point, which gets fencers in the habit of getting the opponent's blade out of the way before they attack, which is I think addresses your point of teaching participants to "kill someone while remaining safe." And jumping ahead to Koyo, post #84: We don't have a lot of terms for this, but sen sen no sen timing is part of what separates a great fencer from a mediocre one, particularly in epee, where timing is crucial (0.04 seconds slower than your opponent and you're locked out). I don't know if we consciously work on sen sen no sen timing, it's just something that some people are able to build up. Body feints, even minuscule ones, tie into this to a certain degree. There's a gal at my club who is excellent at using a twitch of her off-hand to make you think she's about to lunge, drawing you in so she counters your attempted counter. Jeannet is one of the best out there at this. He's a very patient, still fencer (not literally standing there, but not doing a lot of feints, attacks, etc), who can really get inside the opponent's rhythm and be there with the reposte before the opponent has really even begun an attack. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cpo7O8SVRVQ"]YouTube- Beijing 2008 - MEI - GOLD - Tagliariol ITA v Jeannet F FRA - 1 of 2[/ame] And jumping ahead to post #86, Koyo wrote: And back to sabre, back to Lopez. Jump to 2:07 in this video for a collection of great "dang it, I swore I was way out of range" points. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zyf-nu8o5h0"]YouTube- Lopez's Counterattacks[/ame] Okay, it's 2:30 am and I'm only not even halfway done with this thread...I'll come back tomorrow for some more
An interesting "hole" in sword history is the great lack of information about what transpired when the Dutch and Portugese crossed pathes with the Japanese beginning in the 16th Century. There are occasional allusions to some later sword WAZA seeming to reflect something from European sword but there is no info I have found that speaks to Japanese swordsmen encountering European swordsmen either in combat or competition and what the outcomes may have been. Thoughts? Best Wishes, Bruce
Hi Mitlov Thanks for thr downloads. HAD to watch them over and over egain to see what was happening just as well there were explanations. Could see many of the principles discussed. Having to watch again?? Below Gerry Kincaid 5th dan kendo SEAMS to be making a strike to the head but in fact John Hepburn 6th dan kendo is controlling the ken sen (line of sword line of attack) which would be right of way?..and making a stop strike?? to the wrist. Both are lifelong friends of mine and were kind enough to invite myself and students to crosstrain with them. Learned so much.
It wasnt just the Dutch and Spanish - the English as well - read the account of John Davis being killed by Japanese pirates off Malaysia in 1605... the English dealt with them using boarding pikes and cannon (turned inwards on their own ship) - beats risking sword to sword combat... While I have not seen any detailed comentary I have seen references to things like the Spanish use of Japanese troops against the Dutch in a naval boarding action in Manila Bay - and a few throw away comments in early commentaries on visiting Japan refering to swords.
Well said..... I would also encourage you to read So's book concerning the history of the WA-KO. General QI Ji-guang identified a number of engagements where the "pirate forces" he was fighting included Dutch, Portugese, Spanish and English mercenaries as well as the use of European tactics and firearms. I am sure that the early years, prior to the formal establishment of Macao and Hong Kong must have been a "laboratory" of military experimentation under the auspices such authorities as the various pirate strongholds in the Phillipines, Formosa and Indonesia. Just some thoughts. Best Wishes, Bruce
Dividing up the various kinds of timings as "beginner" or "advanced" as Koyo has done is simplistic. They are all useful. Just because the timing is sen no sen doesn't mean that you are reacting. Ideally you pressure your opponent into attacking and then hit them off their attack on purpose, not as a reaction. The kendo term for this is debana waza. Alternately using go no sen timing, you cause them to attack and then let their attack almost complete before the parry and counter attack. Again this is not a reaction in the ideal case - it all starts from pressure. Of course before you acquire the skill to do this these waza are mostly executed as reactions. But if you are skilled enough to make sen-zen no sen timing work, then you are skilled enough to be the driver in the action for the other timings.
Is the crow hop the same thing fencers call a ballestra? A ballestra is a jump forward using the rear leg as propulsion. The legs do not cross (front leg stays front leg), and the feet land at the same time. It's often used immediately preceding a lunge to explosively close distance. Or is the crow hop something else?
Neil The basic principle is to ATTACK AT ALL TIMES so what you say about sen is the same as our understanding. Even when stepping aside this MUST have attacking action as is striking though his attack or through his intention to attack. Had I written "Attack at all times show a superior fighting spirit and destroy his will to continue" Principle of sword and empty hand. In sword "Assert control in general but over the ken sen in particular". this may have been clearer. Mitlov Aiki ken was created by O sensei ueshiba and established by Saito Morihiro shihan specifically to allow aikidoka to study sword principles which are fundamental to the empty hand principles of aikido riai. We are taught to explode the hips forward and to allow the feet to move naturally bneath them rather than to lunge or step. Crow hopping is often used to suddenly redirect the body during an encounter. Below I have moved forward to strike at the head of Gerry Kincaid 5th dan kendo member of the british Kendo Team. He has cut at where my foot would have landed..I crowhopped by stamping the ball of my foot down allowing me to draw it back but still mount the attack to the head (not as powerfull now) Gerry is so fast that he cut up into my strike and struck the forearm. Oh all right he SUCKERED me. We are using jo rather than bokken,
Thanks for the explanation. I'm still trying to visualize exactly what it is you're describing. I absolutely agree that you don't want plodding footwork where you're shifting weight from one foot to another. Is the "crow hop" similar to the bouncing, loose footwork that Kleibrink (the guy on the left) uses in the video below to facilitate sudden direction changes and sudden changes in distance? [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5TR2HnOHtU"]YouTube- Beijing 2008 - MFI - L4 - Zhu CHN v Kleibrink GER - 1 of 2[/ame] Or is it something else entirely? Thanks!
Yes it is used to disrupt the opponents rythm amd distancing. Paradoxically there is a saying that in aikido you MUST avoid aiki. Meaning you must NOT adopt a rythm timing or distancing that is mutual as in "harmony" the harmonising with the rythm or attitude of an attacker is there perhaps for an instant so that you can destroy or disrupt his movement. regards koyo
Couldn't agree more. Epee in particular is all about playing the rhythm of your opponent to manipulate the range to your advantage. The gold medal bout in Beijing between Jeannet of France and Tagliariol of Italy was particularly great to watch in this respect. The text-box commentary following each point helps analyze who successfully did this to whom, and how: Part 1: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cpo7O8SVRVQ"]YouTube- Beijing 2008 - MEI - GOLD - Tagliariol ITA v Jeannet F FRA - 1 of 2[/ame] Part 2: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BoESlHlWxC8"]YouTube- Beijing 2008 - MEI - GOLD - Tagliariol ITA v Jeannet F FRA - 2 of 2[/ame] Another great bout in that respect was Tagliariol v. Abajo (Spain) from Beijing's semifinals, with some equally-excellent commentary added: Part 1: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cvvzx5_y7cM"]YouTube- Beijing 2008 - MEI - L4 - Abajo ESP v Tagliariol ITA - 1 of 2[/ame] Part 2: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJazNpSF0lE"]YouTube- Beijing 2008 - MEI - L4 - Abajo ESP v Tagliariol ITA - 2 of 2[/ame]
