I am not a medical person VM but you seem to have a background in that area, so maybe you can answer something for me. It seems to me that some people have a physical make up which lends itself to greater acceleration. I am thinking for example of those who can jump to great heights with seeming ease whereas others of apparently similar build and of similar experience training-wise can achieve only a fraction of the height. I have also witnessed others who seem to be very, very quick with their hands compared to others (KJN Watson springs to mind). Is this due entirely to better and longer training or am I right in thinking that people have different "types" of muscle and therefore some people are able to accelerate their limbs much more than others by virtue of this "different type" of muscle? If this is correct then, using your formula, it might go some way to explaining the seemingly incredible punching power of some slightly built people as if they are able to produce much greater acceleration that could lead to a higher than expected impact on the target whereas some biig people despite their greater mass, may not be able to produce such great acceleration which would then "cancle out" part or all of the effect of the greater mass. Indeed their mass may even be an obstacle to such accleration? Would my "diferent type of muscle" theory also explain why somefolks seem to be natural sprinters whilst others excell at distance running, but rarely does anyone really excel at both? I am not sure if I am looking for hope or excuses with this question, but it seems worth asking anyway!
That is the formula for punching power which you defied me to find (a law in physics). It shows that size and strength can play a role but because size and mass are not the same thing in physics, your statement that "The bigger and stronger you are, the harder you can hit" isn't necessarily true. I agree that it CAN be true, but it isn't always true. A 600lbs man can have incredible mass and his strength might be massive just to be able to move his heavy legs! But if he can't generate the acceleration or velocity....despite his size and strength, his punching power is zero.
What you are implying is essentially correct in terms of physics. If you look at the formula; mass, acceleration and velocity all have equal part roles in ultimately determining punching power. Now....imagine if you initially were very slow and punched at a velocity of roughly 10 km/h. But with practice and proper technique, you suddenly can now punch at roughly 20 km/h. What have you just done? You just DOUBLED your punching power based on technique alone! If you were to double your punching power based on mass alone....you would have to have doubled your mass (or weight)! It is far easier to practice hard and double, triple or quadruple your velocity via good technique....whereas quadrupling your current weight to get the same results would be ridiculous. As for the kinetics...there are several theories out there concerning the red-fibers, white-fibers, fast-twitch, slow-twitch muscles. Also of importance is the location of the insertion and origin of the various muscles....which plays into lever theory.
OK. I'll grant that theoretically, what you say is true. However, I happen to live on planet Earth, and until some sort of bizarre phenomenon comes into play which periodically changes the pull of gravity, weight is essentially the same thing as mass when discussing these formulas. People's weight doesn't usually change dramatically enough from day to day, to try and factor a change in mass when looking for a different outcome of the equation. As you pointed out to KIWEST, it's much easier to try and work on a technique which will improve your velocity (or acceleration). The make-up of humans doesn't really differ among the species, i.e. bone, blood, fascia, etc. are roughly in the same proportions from one individual to the next, and therefore a larger person will weigh more than a smaller person. Using gravity (which we can assume/agree as a constant for the purposes of discussion) to "fall forward" into the punch (after the initial push-off with the feet), will then add more acceleration to a larger person, since the distance covered is less than what's required to reach maximum velocity. This doesn't even take into consideration that larger leg muscles could generate a stronger push-off, which would result in a faster initial "launch" into the punch (assuming a full body effort, as opposed to just swinging the arms). Certainly more muscular arms would help to move the arms with greater speed, given that the developed muscles in the arms include those which move it at its attachment at the shoulder (many of these muscles are actually located on the torso, and why I make the stipulation). I was going to mention that there are exercises which can help shorten the time to execute muscular contractions, known as the "twitch-factor" but you already brought it up in your reply to KIWEST. The last thing which you didn't cover, has to do with *conversion* of force. One of the things that makes a punch so devastating, has to do with the amount of force absorbed by the recipient of the blow. The greater surface area of a fist that would be natural for a larger individual to posses, increases the amount of force transferred (or converted) to the target. What all this means is that the formula you thought disproved my allegations, actually reinforces my claims. Do I really need to stipulate that the person not be comatose?
BTW, Kiwi, as VM said, you can't really change your weight, but trying to effectively double, triple, and certainly quadruple your punch speed is equally ludicrous. What Pugil has suggested, about pushing off harder with your feet and converting the force through the hips so that very little is lost, does create the illusion that you have increased weight/mass. Proper angle of penetration on the target also plays an important role when deciphering the force felt by the recipient. Just thought you might like to know!
I haven't taken the time to look at all previous post but here is my two cents. I feel power is created by alignment of the joints and a connection with the ground. Speed generated with mass is of course the formula for power but if your foundation is weak you cannot fully optimize your potential power.
Good golly, miss molly, what on earth does that have to do with KSW getting into the Olympics? :topic: Just kidding with you there, Obe, as a means of pointing out the obvious thread drift.
So tell me about these twitchy exercises UK.....serously I am interested! I would start another thread but its geting late and I am tired... And how come most Koreans seem to be able to naturally jump their own height whereas most europeans cannot. Unless you are Airnick of course....
Kiwest there are basically two types of muscle fibre, and peoples athletic abilities very much depend on the type they are predominantly blessed with No point in going into detail here, but read these two web pages as a starter http://sportsmedicine.about.com/od/anatomyandphysiology/a/MuscleFiberType.htm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skeletal_muscle whether training can convert one type of muscle fibre into another is a much debated, but very unclear point
Where knockout punching is concerned there are, of course, a few other considerations, including: accuracy and angle of strike, timing, and the resilience of the opponent. Some Boxers are famed for having 'glass jaws'.
Your post just shows that you have some idea of the basic components in the Punching Power formula...but fail to analyze it correctly because much of what you claim that I forgot or didn't mention is already INTERGRATED into the formula! I see this all the time. People read about COPD and memorize some facts found in Wiki and think they know all about it...when in reality, in my experience, a 1st year med student who might not have read it all may actually be more useful because although they might not have memorized all the facts....they can apply correctly the little facts they did bother to memorize. It is one thing to know a bunch of facts, it is another to apply those facts correctly to be of help. Once again, the formula is: Punching Power = mass x acceleration x distance/time So what mass are we talking about here? If you think mass in this formula applies to a persons total weight on as you put it "Planet Earth", I can tell you that you're wrong. The proof is that a person takes a swing and registers a baseline punching power. This person then places a 5kg weight in his pocket and repeats the experiment. Just because the 5kg in his pocket increased his mass doesn't mean he will punch harder now. This illustration shows that when speaking of mass, we are actually talking about the components that contribute to the punch....namely mass of the legs, hips, arms and parts of the torso. Thus, your entire 2nd paragraph and 3rd paragraph is moot...since everything is already in the formula! In terms of acceleration...what is it? Certainly, gravity is a form of acceleration, but what else contributes to it? The push-off from the feet adds to it in that a force will be met with equal and opposite direction, which occurs when a puncher pushes off from the floor. You then go on to mention force and surface area. Well...no need. Why? Because the formula for force is: Force = mass x acceleration. We just covered mass and acceleration...so mentioning force just goes to show you know about mass and acceleration but didn't apply it correctly! Because if you did, you wouldn't mention force since it would be redundant within the formula! The distance over time portion covers the velocity component. This is where the biggest improvement lies. Take a first time student with no punching experience and ask them to throw a punch....it is shocking how bad the form and how small the force generated is! Ever see a 5 year old junior girl throw a punch in a kiddie class? Nearly no form and nearly no force. As she grows up and practices...her mass may only double or triple. But her actual punching power may increase 10 or 20-fold! So asking for a tripling or quadrupling in an adult is pretty realistic since it is in the realm of normal human capacity for MOST people. Conversely, asking people to triple or quadruple mass is unrealistic. A real understanding of all of the components and true application will yield results far different than what you think. Take a 50kg woman and a 100kg man. Sure, the man weighs exactly double what the woman weighs...does this mean he has double the punching power if all else is equal? No. The human body doesn't work that way. A quick composition of the man may actually show that although he weighs double what the woman weighs...his arms and legs may be 3 or 4 times the woman's mass. This is true because non-equal distribution of mass is the norm (just because the man weighs double the woman...it doesn't mean his brain weighs double or that his head is double in size or that his height is double). Thus, an understanding of the formula...true understanding of it and all of its components and application will show that the evidence still applies to even a 600lbs man who isn't comatose.
I think that we're in danger here of some people trying to out-do one another with their supposed superior knowledge, qualifications and intellect. I left school shortly before my 15th birthday — I hated school at the time and couldn't wait to escape! I took no exams before leaving. The only exams I have taken since — apart from my driving test, various martial arts grading tests and two Teaching Adults certificates — related to the Industry I went into when I left school. Since then, I have attended the University of Life! Anyway, the fact remains that if you want to learn how to punch well, then go train with a good Boxing Coach — rather than a Physicist or Mathematician!
There is also a thought process that says if you really wanted to learn how to fight, don't join a MA school or a random gym...rather, form a full-contact street-fighting club with some like-minded friends. After all, there is no replacement for the experience gained from real life fighting...including taking a punch and all the other bumps/bruises/breaks along the way. Don't waste your money on tuition...spend that money on buying medicine to treat your wounds. LOL. In reality, to become a true pro, you need a good coach, a good gym, a good nutritionist and someone with a good understanding of physics to explain to you how to maximize your potential, etc etc etc. It takes many components to make a complete fighter and anyone who knows that will not be dismissive of any of the components.
VegasMichelle, unknownKJN, I don’t know what it is with you guys. Every once in a while I catch myself thinking uh oh, here we go and… sure enough… You are both very smart and sometimes I wish I had half the brains you guys have especially when it comes to the medical and legal stuff but once you get started neither one of you wants to give an inch and as Pugil said, try to out-do one another. The one thing both of you forget is that you are hashing it out in front of everybody else and often derail the current thread. Actually this thread is pretty boring. Kuk Sool Won in the Olympics is never gonna happen because Master Alex is showing off with something that hasn’t even officially been offered yet and I don’t care what he says. So there. Unjee
I am beginning to wonder if you may be right about Master Alex Unjee though only time will tell. You have a point about MAP's two regular sparring partners, although I personally find the technical stuff quite interesting and I actually thought VM's last post was quite reasonable apart from being totally:topic: . I must admit to getting "drawn into the fray" on occasion but I am trying hard not to! I wonder if VM and UK actually know each other in "real life"? Maybe the solution is for VM to come to Canada in August and then we can all sit down and make friends again! How 'bout it Vegas?:evil:
The difference is that I actually have years of formal training and experience in the stuff and think I know what I'm talking about. He admits not to have the training and experience...and thinks he knows the stuff. LOL. You may not believe it but I hold back tons.
Except in the EGO department. :evil: Bear with me folks, as this is the last I have to say on the *punch power* discussion: Despite contentions made by VM, conversion of force is a very integral part of landing a blow. A solid punch versus a glancing blow is proof of that; the glancing blow converts much less energy into the target than the solid punch. And if there's any doubt about size & strength being important when it comes to punching, just let 1000 people choose who they want to be punched by, an 80 pound midget or a 280 pound linebacker. I think you know who the winner of this poll will be. :thinking:
I'm not so sure Unknown...just WHERE would the midget be aiming his punch!:lowblow::whistle::jawdrop: :evil:
Like Unjee says, you both are super smart. Usually, I think UK is funny with the "shyster" cracks. Occasionally, I can see VM has a point about what he's saying... but for the most part I'd like to tell the two of you to get a room. Actually, I believe the conversion of force is a matter of kinetic energy, which is not F=m*a. It's 1/2 m * v^2. So the velocity increases exponentially, while increasing mass only provides linear changes to the power. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_energy Oh yes, and women can increase their testosterone, but I don't recommend it. It usually comes hand in hand with insulin resistance and metabolic syndrome. They haven't quite teased out which is cause and which is effect, but they are usually linked to obesity.
