You'r absolutely right, mate, I should've "Thanked" that post as well as #39. And now it's suitable to compare WKSA/KSW to a commercial enterprise? Hooray, they managed to retain 95% of their most loyal clientele after undergoing a change in management. LOL Before, the comparisons made here on MAP were with the military or academia. I have never heard of a PhD that suddenly *disowned* the university that bestowed the degree upon them, or of military officers which *jumped ship* from the particular branch of service they served in for years and years. Don't get me wrong, military officers and doctors do RETIRE, but that's not what's going on with the non-Won masters, now is it? And blaming the exodus on egos is simply a cop-out IMO. But I'm not bashing WKSA as they do tend to maintain things fairly well for a family run business. But being a a family run business, they don't always make ideal decisions and, more than once or twice, this has caused some of the members in the most important tier to leave and do their own thing, MA-wise. So the bottom line is that sometimes WKSA/KSW makes mistakes regarding policy and if pointing that out, doesn't necessarily make someone anti-KSW but rather it means they are capable of looking beyond prejudices in order to recognize the error in the first place (it IS difficult sometimes to admit fallibility with an icon). Talk about your paranoia and persecution complexes - not everyone has an ax to grind, y'know?
http://www.bullshido.org/forums/showthread.php?t=27971 http://www.mookas.com/media_view.asp?news_no=9024 http://martial-arts.tistory.com/entry/무술올림픽-가능성은-있는가-2009년-6월
A 95% yield from a 50+ year organization is tremendous. We're talking Ivy League retention levels! On the flip side, this means 5% loss...and sure, like any other organization, mistakes can be made. No one is denying this. But this forum is more about harping on the 5% and blowing it out of proportion instead of lauding the 95%. It is clear anti-WKSA sentiment even for those who are in denial.
If anyone is "harping on" VM it is you! The comment about the WKSA having "hemmorrhaged" schools and Masters (not just Masters) was a one line post made as part of the discussion about the announced Martial Arts Olympics. The point of the post was not to denigrate the WKSA but simply to argue that the org is too small to form a true olympic event. Furthermore it was made by someone who really has no axe to grind either way as regards to the WKSA. You have managed, singlehanded, to turn this thread into yet another which is discussing the WKSA rather than the intended topic of what people think about Kuk Sool being classed as a sport for "olympic" purposes. But as you seem to insist on doing so I would also point put that your maths is all wrong anyway. Given that it usualy takes 20 plus years to reach Master level it is a fallacy to compare the number of actual Master who have left in the last year or so to the total number of masters promoted over a 50 year period. What about all the Masters and lower ranks (all potential Masters surely?) who left before thay got that far? I personally know of many ex-KSW practitioners who left before they got to Master level, but who are still practising Martial Arts. Surely you have to include these as well in your calculations as, had they stayed they would have been Masters by now(Pugil would probably have been 7th or 8th dahn for example) and they are just as "lost" to the org as those who left after 5th dahn promotion. Your maths is about as valid as the claim that the WKSA has "1.3 million members with over 800 schools worldwide" Thats an average of 1625 students per school!!! Hmmm. Anyone know of even ONE school with that number of members??? Oh yes, with the WKSA you are a member for "life" (how do they know when you die???) whereas with most MA you have to renew every year. Thats a REALLY fair comparison.NOT! Its like saying my apple tree is better than your as it has produced 10 tons of fruit over the past 10 years whereas yours only produces 2 tons per year. Wonder what they will do when the total number of members exeeds the population of the world??? When students join my school I too tell them that they are "members for life" or at least as long as the school remains. Which is correct, as if they stopped training and returned later they would still keep their old ID nember and not have to re-apply. So when asked how many members I have, I could, by WKSA logic, say that I have nearly 500. The truth is that I have just over 100 PRACTISING students, so that is what I say. If any of my students heard me telling someone the higher figure they would assume I was lying, and although I could argue that I was technically correct, in reality I would be guilty of misleading them at the very least. Howver, I would like to add that I actually think the WKSA is, in many ways a great organisation with many great Masters and practitioners. But in a few areas it just needs to get real, as do you VM. BTW What do YOU think about the inclusion of Kuk Sool (Won) as a Martial Art Olympic event?
KIWEST, This whole Kuk Sool Won in the Olympics has already been discussed before in length. Don't you get that? Or did you simply miss the other thread? FWIW, the whole IOC angle is not a new thing. I simply choose not to rehash it for those too lazy to look it up. Do you even know which events are on the table up for the vote in 2020, 2024, 2028? Did you know that Golf and Rugby beat out MA in 2016 even though MA had an initial vote greater than Rugby? All this has been discussed before. Do you even know which Countries and Committees need to sign off? As for those who left before master level...you and Hyeongsa both probably fit that bill....and surprise, surprise...you both mention it! Talk about ego. Sure it is a shame that a few non-Master ranked BBs left....just as it is a shame that some white and yellow belts left. Shall we include them too? There needs to be a cutoff somewhere....and choosing the cutoff to be for those that appeared on the WKSA website (ie Masters) is as good as any. If you want to start including 3rd and 4th dahns into the discussion to assuage your ego...why stop there? Lets take it all the way back to white belts who left! LOL. The WKSA is a large organization. Over 50+ years, there could be large turnover. And as a school owner, you have to have seen a trend where the majority of students who join do not stick it out to master-level. At most schools...many do not stick it out to make BB! That's reality. So, while I agree a 1.3 million number seems large...if you take into account the revolving door at the lower levels...it is possible. 1.3 million/800 schools/52 years is roughly 31 students any given year per school. I think there are plenty of WKSA schools with atleast 31 students. The higher the retention, the higher the swinging scale in terms of students per school per year. For example, lets say you can get atleast half of your students to stick it out...doubling the yield to 62 students per school per year...which is also possible. Lets say only a third leave....tripling your yield to 93 students per year per school. Do you think that having 31 students or 62 students or even 93 students is ridiculous? I don't. But having said all that, the figure I would dispute is the 800 number....not the total number of active masters in the past year. So much for your maths skills. I agree with you in principle about taking a snapshot of practicing, active folks. That is why I used the 155 number....since that is roughly the number of Masters that were active in the past year.... And in the past year, when the franchising came to be, only 7 or 8 left. Which number do you not agree with? LOL.
Excellent post. Frankly the art of Kuk Sol Won is not practiced enough world wide to be an Olympic sport at this point. Now if they were to look at MMA that might have a very good chance. However Kuk Sol Won is to similar in some ways to Tae Kwon Do for it to have much of a chance!
VM....you proved my point so perfectly i don't think i even need to say anything. i mean bravo! just...wow. but, hell, just because.... oh yes, soon tae yang did leave before the franchise (DUH! anyone knows that) but he did leave because of the path it was going: like i said, just ask! he gets in a foul mood when you even talk about the WKSA. and you "refuse to believe that"??? wonderful! NOW who's in denial? lmao and he left just like eung ko lee. and byung in lee. and all the rest over the 50+ years you keep preachng. but thats just what a "buisness-martial-artist" would do: talk about the "percent" of masters that left instead of WHO left. oh, and 4th degrees are the cut off point? really? what about second and third degrees? i know some very talented ones! no, okay, we'll play your rules: how about all the 4th degrees that left with master e.k. lee and byung in lee? do they count? you KNOW they were all going for master, right? but then again, you just figure the ones that stayed. yep, i'd LOVE to see some of the masters just try to do the stuff byung in lee, soon tae yang, eung ko lee, in joo suh, marlin sims, mike and kaori nebgen, john watson, rudy timmerman, etc did and still can do. hell, i'd like to see you do it! your name isn't put in the history books like there's. and then again neither is mine. woops, hows that for an ego! i know i'm not as good as them. maybe one day! but you count yourself and the other masters as their equals. REALLY??? wow, get off your horse! and this "olympic KSW" has been talked to death, huh? well, THEN DON'T BE ON MY THREAD THEN! see how simple that was? just DON'T be on here if you don't want to rehash old topics. but, no, your gonna sit here, typing away and expecting any of us to be swayed by your arrogant "buisness-martial-art-WKSA loving-break off hating-smart ass" propaganda. when i left, i wished the WKSA a good future. and i mean that. i hope they have a wonderful future, but forgive me if i didn't want to be part of the "McWon". and btw: your pretty damn hypocritical for bitching to us about how we're not loyal or that we're spewing propaganda, when you yourself go off and train in BJJ and other arts openly while BEING in the WKSA, which is extremely disrespectful if you follow the rules you preach about. honestly, your not even worth the time. but keep "proving us wrong": its just making my point even more valid each time you do!
Hyeongsa, grow up and face reality. If you want to talk about KS Olympics....fine...but if you notice, you added WKSA and legal implications in your first post. NEWSFLASH....you aren't in WKSA anymore! Stop bashing them every chance you get. Well...I guess it is your right to bash whoever you want, but don't expect people to just not respond. So when someone in the "McWon", as you put it, comments...don't throw a hissy-fit and ask people to leave your thread. Don't mention WKSA in the first place then! Maybe if you don't bash them, directly or indirectly....I wouldn't respond. If you mention the WKSA...don't be surprised if someone still in the Won has a different view. Deal with it. I laugh at the self-importance you have. Never did I tell you what rank I am in KS. You just assume random stuff. As for me, I never claimed to be loyal to anyone. I openly always stated I cross-trained. The difference between you and me is that: I NEVER made any claims about loyalty and never claimed to believe WKSA history in full. See the difference? You, however, have brought up the concept of loyalty and applied it to yourself...and in reciprocal form, expected loyalty from WKSA (you even said IHS was disloyal in one of your posts!)...so that standard is your cross to bear. I know I pay tuition to attend school and I understand much of the interaction is a business. I don't expect to be given stuff and taught material without payment and time invested. Thats reality. And if you must know, reality is: MOST PEOPLE HAVE NO CLUE what Kuk Sool is! Yep, ask most people walking the streets...they have no clue. So, if they don't know what KS is, they sure as hell don't know who BIL or EK Lee is. LOL. The supposed history books exist only in your mind and if you place these people in them while bashing Masters still left in the "McWon"...it speaks volumes about your character. I've spoken with KJN KH Kwon before and he strikes me as a very nice guy. I guess in your mind, he isn't anybody and doesn't have the skills because he is still McWon. LOL. Who said 4th dahn is the cutoff...not me...I said if you want to include 3rd or 4th dahns...lets be consistent and include white and yellow belts who left too. Did you ask every white and yellow belt who left why they left too? LOL. Get real. The fact of the matter is...it is very possible that you have no idea who a white belt or a yellow belt is if they aren't students at your school. Do you honestly think KJN Evarts in NY knows every white belt in KJN Gause's school in CA? That is ridiculous! Do you think KJN Everts even knows every single 1st or 2nd dahn in KJN Al Thani's school? Probably not. That is why I set the cutoff at 5th dahn and above (Master-rank) because anyone with internet access can simply goto once place (WKSA Masters page on the WKSA website) and have a common idea of who we're talking about. So if you're going to start mentioning 2nd and 3rd dahns....well, then I'd like you to start mentioning all the color belt students by name too. LOL. It's something called consistency, try it.
I don't understand...There's only 29 5th degrees and 51 or so masters in all on the WKSA masters page. Why aren't the 155 shown?
"I laugh at the self-importance you have. Never did I tell you what rank I am in KS. You just assume random stuff. As for me, I never claimed to be loyal to anyone. I openly always stated I cross-trained. The difference between you and me is that: I NEVER made any claims about loyalty and never claimed to believe WKSA history in full. See the difference? You, however, have brought up the concept of loyalty and applied it to yourself...and in reciprocal form, expected loyalty from WKSA (you even said IHS was disloyal in one of your posts!)...so that standard is your cross to bear. I know I pay tuition to attend school and I understand much of the interaction is a business. I don't expect to be given stuff and taught material without payment and time invested. Thats reality." fiiirst....good job Walter Dimmick. you "laugh at my self importance"...does Kuk Sa Nim laugh with you? lol and i'm prety sure that i said i wasn't anywhere near their skill level yet, but you hear what you want to hear. thats why an argument with you is like watching a person smash their head against a wall: its fun to watch, and then funny as hell when they pass out. second, your not loyal to the WKSA? then why the hell are you defending them if "no one knows what kuk sool is" and you yourself have no loyalty to it? hows that for two faced and hypocritical? and yet you never answered my idea: i would love to see you try to do half of what those guys can do since you put yourself and everyone else in the WKSA on the same level as just SOME of the people that i listed. and just so we clarify, which might have been my fault, i'm talking U.S. WKSA masters. Master Kwon is phenomenal, and so are alot of the Masters in Europe, but they train with the old school mindset and not your buisness aspect of martial arts. how to make a quick buck - i'll ask you. how to knock someone out - i'll ask one of the masters from england. and i thanked your post because once again, your proving my point by making yourself even more important then you are. you dropped the percentage talk though! oh boy! lol but no, keep preaching. i'm really enjoying this! just remember you represent the WKSA on here and your actions reflect the Association in whole! oh, and by the way, i can say what i want since i still practice Kuk Sool Won. true, i don't practice WKSA lol but hey, same thing i suppose. so my interest in the ART of Kuk Sool Won going to the Olympics far outweighs the BUISNESS of WKSA and how you guys make your money. so, about this Kuk Sool olympics. lol DEMDIKE: apprently, Master Alex has made the comment (actually, i was there to here it) that the necessary steps have already been made and the art of Kuk Sool will be in the olympics. yet nothing can be found about it. fishy, yes?
The Kuk Sool "Olympics" may have been discussed to death VM but I notice that didnt stop you choosing to read and derail, this "dead" subject! And yes I did miss the other thread. Was it about this new event or the possible inclusion of Kuk Sool in the main Olympics? If it was the latter then that would explain why the thread was started. But just because there has been a thread on any topic before does not preclude anyone from starting another if they see fit, or indeed missed it themselves. The reason I mentioned lower ranks as regard to people leaving is because the comment made by Master Dunchock was talking about Schools AND Masters leaving, not just Masters. And BTW that would also include the schools students if they choose to follow their instructor, so yes, that could include white belts. Furthermore his comment said "recently" which I admit is a rather ambiguous term, but it certainly did not mention the franchise specifically. Therefore if you are doing calculations as a result of disagreeing with him, you need to include at the very least the number school owners of any rank who have left as quite apart from myself I know there have been some with quite large schools below the rank of 5th dahn who have left for various reasons. Master Dunchocks comment was in regard to KSW not being large enough to warrant being an olympic sport, therefore my comment about the number of students which the org has, is entirely relevant to the argument. We can only guess at the number of students actually practising but my guess would be that the average school has 50 - 60 students as most in the UK are part time ventures many of which have only 20 -30 if not less, which would balance out the few very large schools. If I am anywhere near correct and assumng that the KSW claim of 800 schools is correct (which I seriously doubt) then that only gives a total of 40,000 to 48,000 worldwide. Not many at all in comparison to other sports.
I too have heard Master Alex talk about this subject and an email was circulated annoucing the good news. However, it was emphasised that it was to be a sparate event from the main olympics, albeit sanctioned by the IOC and that the WKSA were NOT saying that KSW was to become a full olympic sport. KSN Does seem to have alot of influence so it wouldnt surprise me, if there was to be an "official" MA Olympics, that he managed to get KSW included. I would have to add though, that the ONLY place I have heard about this is from the WKSA themselves. While I agree that it goes against the WKSA's own definition of KSW as a martial ART and not a martial SPORT, as a fullt-ime school owner and therefore a business owner I have to say that it sounds a good idea as it gets the name of Kuk Sool (OK so it will have a Won after it!) in the public eye, which has to good for all of us. Doesn't it?
It'll never happen Too small, not well enough known, not represented in enough countries, not professional enough in the way its run (take a look at judging in competition), not competitive enough (by which I mean competitive tournaments are a trivial part of Kuk Sool - not the mainstay, unlike Boxing or Wrestling) Besides which as VM accurately pointed out: the selection process by whch games are promoted to the Olympics mean any such decision would be 20 odd years away Now if Alex said that then either 1) he's off his tree 2) its total BS 3) he's talking of some other games which have purloined the word "Olympic" and he does not unerstand the difference Since this thread has started, we've found at least three different sets of MA games which lay claim to the title "olympic", mainly incorrectly a) This in Korea http://www.bullshido.org/forums/showthread.php?t=27971 which if you actually read the test just says they "Last year we started a movement to really enlarge the festival and promote it as a global martial arts Olympics," So not an Olympic event at all b) This International Martial Arts Games Comitte http://wikimartialarts.org/index.php/International_Martial_Arts_Games_Committee_(IMGC) This is affiliated to the Olympic movement - but WKSA, nor any other form of Kuk Soll is affilicated to it c) Sportaccord http://www.agfisonline.com/vsite/vnavsite/page/directory/0,10853,5148-197860-215083-nav-list,00.html But NO mention of Olympics there d) This Russian-American effort http://www.imacusa.net/index.php Which calls itself "olympics" but has no right to the name Now it could be that WKSA has got itself into one of these somehow, and Alex is deliberately sowing confusion. However if WKSA wer to take part in one of these what is it going to find? Open competition between entrants from different MAs. What happens when a WKSA member has to spar with a Kick boxer or Muay Thai exponent. All they do is fight,,,, all the WKSA do is forms and techniques. Not much use in mixed competition And if they DO allow competition in forms, how are the judges going to compare forms from however many different martial arts, let alone variants of Kuk Sool? Face it, half the masters seem to have different ideas of how KS forms should be done. If that can't be standardised within the sport, how are you going to get external judges (and they WILL be external) to make sens of it? The whole thing is a total non-starter
Hmmm. Seems you're a little off your game than usual, VM (and I must say, I'm somewhat disappointed). Instead of "consistency" maybe practicality mixed with a sensible analogy would be better suited. A college graduate (or even someone with an associates degree) is more likely to pursue a gradaute or post graduate degree than a high school dropout. And worrying whether or not someone still in the third grade will pursue such a goal is a complete waste of time... just do the percentages (sheesh!). I do like the reasoning about being able to check on the WKSA website WRT who has achieved master rank, except that WKSA is not that reliable with their online updates. But if using that as a means of information, they also list (or used to) BB promotions of various rank. So although you woudln't be able to see a photo, you could cross refernce a name with their current rank (promotion lists were archived at one point and you could look back over three years or so of BB promotions).
Actually, no. A sport does not have to be well-known to make it to the Olympics. More important is National Sponsorship, potential for viewership, logistic feasibility and corporate sponsorship. Look at the sport of Curling! Before it made the Olympics...did anyone really know what curling is? Does anyone really know what curling is RIGHT NOW? Baseball is a popular sport worldwide. Yet it was taken off the Olympic Roster. So it goes to show that a little-known sport can be added and kept while well-known sports can be booted. FYI, the inclusion of curling and exclusion of baseball were recent events. Making stuff up as usual and lying to boot. Great job. I never commented on the skill level of folks outside the Won. In fact, I am the one who actually pointed out that rank, skill and affiliation do not go hand-in-hand. I'll go a step further, I never commented on ground-skills of folks even though I may be one of few in the Won who actually study it on the side apart from KS. Meanwhile you raise yourself and your perceived self-importance by saying you made BJJ folks tap? LOL. Get real. MAists vary in skill level no matter what art is being practiced. If you recognize that, commenting on who can do what is meaningless because not everyone has the same skill-set which can be tempered by age, injury, experience, training etc. You are the one who has bashed the WKSA every chance you got...calling it a business, a McWon, watered-down, non-loyal, not-teaching upper level material, etc etc etc...bash bash bash and then end with, "I wish the WKSA a good future and I meant that." LOL. Two-faced. You bashed the Won and called it a flippy art and not old school...effectively bashing all the Masters who still teach in the Won and who basically set the tone for what is taught in their schools! If you think Masters have no influence what is taught at their own schools...you are insane! You like to throw out names of all the Masters who left, and when I see it coming and mention some of the Masters who STAYED who you bashed...what say you? Now you separate European Masters from US ones! So now, all the US ones are crap?! I always thought KJN YC Song was a nice person but now he's crap just because he's a US WKSA Master? LOL. What about KJN Jolly....is he crap too? While I tend not to mention skill level of folks outside the WON unless it is done positively and respectfully (you can check back all 400+ posts of mine and see this to be true!)...you like to bash skill-level of people IN the Won. LOL. Great job! What I comment on before is the self-promotions, law, medicine, logistics, history....none of which necessarily even touches skill-levels of both folks in AND out of the Won. You are forgetting to take into account turnover and the 52 years of existence. The 50-60 students in the average school now are NOT the same folks as the 50-60 students from 40 years ago! There is massive turnover over the years where people may have come and gone, especially at the color-belt level. In your calculation of roughly 40,000 ACTIVE members right now in 1 year...how many members could there have been in 52 years so far in total? It could very well be a 7-figured number. BTW, I think that 40,000 active number is still a bit high. And I think the turnover rate is higher in some places than you think....especially in this economy. Students who are only 6 months in and who have been laid off...don't usually put their MA monthly fees ahead of putting food on the family table. Like I said before, you will get a large percentage of folks who never make it to BB. Actually, there are over 250 international federations and committees. All that is needed is for reciprocal evaluation and for the various federations to accept and adopt the Olympic Charter as outlined by the IOC in the year of the games. This is a very important point....in that organizations can do what they want but as long as they fall into line in the year of the games, its legit. They can then, once again, do what they want in the non-Olympic years. But your point is well-made in that because there are so many organizations with IOC ties, the WKSA could have easily been accepted at one of the 250+ federations. There is a big difference between making a roster...and actually getting any "playing time." If you take a look back at the exchange, Hyeongsa wanted me to name every single Master in the Won (he was not satisfied with a small group like SJS, Barry and CO Harmon). To which....I appropriately responded with asking him to name every single white and yellow belt that left because he (not I) wanted to include the lower ranks. We can discuss Master-level ranked folks because we know who they are for the most part. But it is more difficult to talk about lower-ranked folks because the WKSA website has a limited BB promotions list and no color belt promotions list on the website.
Limited? AFAIK all the lists in the past included everyone who tested and promoted for dahn rank who didn't fall under jurisdiction of Korea (I wasn't wanting to include the guppies, FWIW). Therefore, USA, Europe, Canada, etc. are represented. IDK how complete the lists are on the korean website or if they even post them, but you'd have to be pretty good with hangeul since the english part of that website is spotty at best. I'm not interested in your past debate with other MAPers and therefore need no justifications... I was merely commenting on things that were posted, not calling you a liar or an idiot or anything else with a negative slant.
I think you slightly misunderstood what I was trying to get at Basically my point was that of four MA competitions that we'd found claiming (even vaguely) to be "Olympic" only one had a valid claim - and that the WKSA was not affiliated to that. Of course in view of what you say, they could have chosen another route for affiliation to the Olympic movement through one of the other groups Whatever the truth of that, the fact is WKSA on the world scale is too unimportant to get included You bring up Curling as a valid exception: a small unknown sport. However |I'd regard that as an odd-ball: when you think about it there are not that many WINTER sports in existence, and I'd guess that when they were trying to expand the winter games they were grasping at straws in an attempt to extend the range of sports. Also remember the Winter Olympics tends to be more restricted in its appeal - mainly to Nordic, Alpine and North American countries so the unusual has a greater chance of getting through. Most of the world (South America, Asia, Africa) simply could nto be bothered as they've no tradition of snow or ice-bound sports
