Hey, most Saturdays all my friends and I will be playing Airsoft. Sometimes though, we go to the park with our Shinai/Bokuto (and my bogu) and we fight. I know MA should never be used innapropriately, so of course, I try not to let my Taekwon Do training influence my swordsmanship (<-insert better word). What I'm fearing though, is that when we start weapons training in class, would it be right for me to continue to stage these mock battles? Would that be the same as me showing off Scissor kicks on trees (something I would never do)? I'm sort've reluctant to starting Shinai training if this is the case.
I'm sorry. IMPO, using your TKD in those matches wouldn't be "inappropriate" usage. And playing in friendly matches with shinai - with or without training - isn't either. To me, "inappropriate" usage would be going out and picking fights with people. Or using drunks as punching bags. Etc. That's "inappropriate." Playing safely with friends isn't something I'd consider inappropriate. Mike
I do feel, however, that if my instructor saw me fighting a person (in a friendly manner) with TKD while the other person has a shinai, they would look down upon me, and even if they didn't see me, I feel like it wouldn't be right. Do you agree there? Edit: Or would you consider sparring with someone who didn't know TKD as wrong?
Not at all on either count. It's a type of training. What the other person knows or doesn't know is irrelevant. Unless you're doing it purely to beat someone up or to show off. Chances are, in fact, that by playing with people who aren't trained, you'll progress faster (in ability if not rank) than many of your peers at the dojang. Untrained people will do the most bizarre things and dealing with that can hone your sparring and fighting skills immensely. Mike
It is great training against someone with a shinai - Yoshitaka Funakoshi (of Shotokan Karate) used to get his students to attack him full speed and power with a bokken. Sometimes he came second. But he became the most feared man at the dojo. Training with people who are untrained is good as they are not bogged down trying to remember how to react (ah, block number 5 against attack number 3) so they just act on instinct. Put a headguard on and give them a big pair of gloves and tell 'em to 'go for it'.
hmmm is shinai fightig with untrained people bad???? No I did it for 5 years and still do it now, jsut becasue someone isnt formally trained doesnt really mean much, the best lessons you can learn are with pepol who dont care if they are doing it "right" or "like sensi told us" And it wouldnt be wrong to use any oraml traing you receive in your shinai fighting, it would make your shinai buddies better cuz it would rub on them. as wellas having a different arena to test out teh things you learn formally, becuase Ive seen some TKD weapons kata, and well, I had ahrd time not laughin at the complete unworkability of osme of movents. You will also develope a much more unqie style of githing than if you only had formal traing. My personal style is influenced by lots of things and very unorthodox, being influenced by kendo, rapier, medievl longsword, cinema and video games. I actualy know pepole, most of which are friends, who lagh at formally trained fighters or poeplo who are nitpicky about technique.
Playing is the root to all combat fighting, kids play fight, young animals play fight, this way they learn important skills in a safe environment and at the end of the day, training in a class you are in fact only really playing. So you keep it up, and learn more skills, especially with weapons you will find you reactions will get faster which in turn will improve your empty hand skills, and if you play with begginers you will be surprised just how much more you learn. God knows how many problems beginners have gave me over the years Regards Pat
I agree - sometimes it's a good idea to try and clear your mind of stuff you've learnt and just look at what's happening - much like an alert beginner would do. I think a lot of clubs suffer from people becoming too used to each other's moves and timing so they settle into a pattern of fighting that is not very innovative. Beginners, or anyone from another place irrespective of experience level, will bring something new and fresh to any club. In clubs that don't have a large number of students there can also be a subconcious (or not so subconcious) pecking order in operation that establishes a hierarchy for who should win rather than everyone actually observing the fight at hand. Beginners don't know these rules so they tend to ignore them and get on with the job. W
Why do you think your "mentors" would look down on you? I see one reason; fear of your style becomming "poluted" by the stuff you do for fun. -and unfortunately (unless you're very skilled and disiplined) they're right. I have a longsword-class that I train -Fiore-style. Now this system is based on a given consept. Everybody (myself included) are keen on mooving on to freesparring, but I try to put the breaks on. Why is that? Some smart guy have said that "it takes 1000 repetitions to get somthing in, but it takes 10.000 repetitions to relearn somthing you got in wrong the first time". So if you have ambitions in learning a speciffic style or tradition, freesparring on your sparetime can be very "polluting" (unless you're very skilled and disiplined), as your reflexes and little experience could have you conclude that a given thing is smart when it's not. I have several examples of this from my own training with the longsword. (I've made several conclusions based on freesparring when I was green that now seem quite stupid, and that in some cases have resulted in me having developed bad habits that I struggle with now. (Like cutting under the opponents sword and then cut upwards towards the opponents underarms; a weak attack where Fiore have many -much better alternatives.) So should you stop freesparring? That's up to you. If you decide you want to continue freesparring; you're at least aware of the potential downsides, and can avoid potential future problems easier
Rabid Wombat: "Or would you consider sparring with someone who didn't know TKD as wrong?" Not at all. I (16 yrs old) spar with my brother (18 yrs old) and my friend (17yrs old), i warn them both that they could get hurt, and we ware prtective gear. (gloves and foot pads). I see it as real life training. These guys have no martial arts exp, and it would be like getting in a fight on the street (obviously in self defence, and assuming your opponent is also untrained in MA) PS: still havent gotten the hang of quoting. sry ~Tang Soo~
I see your points and agree that freesparring can be detrimental if allowed to develope bad habits. I learnt the hard way about 1000 reps in vs 10,000 reps to relearn. Fighting is not the same as performing a martial art. However, if all you ever learn moves for is to win at sparring (competitive or otherwise) or to do katas then proper technique is everything. If you want to learn what will be effective in a wide range of 'realistic' fighting situations such as self defence then sometimes (I did say sometimes originally) it is good to do something different to make you think and re-evaluate the effectiveness of what you have learnt as part of the process. What other styles of long sword fighting are there? Do you ever go up against people who have done styles other than fiore? What happens if you do spar with them? What happens when a grappler meets a kicker and each has only ever practised with their own kind? A standoff to begin with I'd wager. W
You're right, in a way. Everybody doing marial arts will eventually (provided they don't stop doing it) develop skills to a degree where they begin to see limitations and possebilities. Now that's when you have to decide what you want to do with your art. Stay as true to the "original" art as possible? Be as good as possible at fighting? In either way, there's room for interpetations and individual adaptations, and it's of course never wrong to do this WHEN YOU'RE READY FOR IT. Now that's what I meant; your mentor might think that you're not ready for the free impro/personal adaptation-bit yet, and then you have to decide wether to listen to him or not. If your main goal is to be as good as possible, I guess doing different stuff, picking the bits that suits you the best from each art and then merge them; is the best. Good question. Well there are roughly 2 styles of longsword; the italian and the german tradition. I've only had the pleassure of sparring with the germanists once, and got my rear department kicked. My "mentor" on the other hand kicked them good I'm not gonna get into style-discussion here, but there's history and evolution to consider. The fiore system was based on his experiences (and improvisations) around the german system, so statistically I'd bet for the italian whenever the two styles meet. But there are so many different aspects to consider. *the relative skill of the wielder *the fact that fiores sucess was based on secresy; now his longswordsystem is probably the best known today There will never be such a thing as the perfect system, and improvising is the only way to reac your perfect level of MA. Provided that you do it at the right time!
