Weapons defense?

Discussion in 'Karate' started by Kframe, Jun 28, 2014.

  1. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Very sensible :)

    I was asking because there was a lot of working around the attacker's arm's length in the video. Also parts where, to me, it looked as if the attacker could have kept at an advantageous range had it been faster.
  2. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Seminars are a little 'up in the air' at the moment. I'm trying to resolve a little health issue and most likely will require some further surgery.

    You can come to a class and I'll walk and talk you through what we do and how it overlaps with other drills.
  3. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    Honestly I think pretty much everyone is likely to hesitate when faced with a live blade wielded by someone intent on doing harm no matter what training they've done. It's one of those things. If they even spot they are being attacked with a blade in the first place.
    My money would be on the guy that has faced the most realistic attacks in training and done fairly well. Actually my money would be on the guy that's been attacked with a blade before, survived it, has street smarts and a ton of aggression. :)
    I suppose in the spirit of MAP we should "triangulate" a problem by approaching it from many different angles (FMA pun for you there) but I still think live blade, for the most part, is more a training novelty.
    I feel it misses out on the one basic ingredient that is the main reason many arts or approaches fall short....energy. Intent. Resistance.
    Given that we pretty much agree that a committed knife attack will very likely cause some sort of cut, and live knife training doesn't (by and large) then that shows how much intensity is missing I feel.
    In the same way if I'm training to defend against a jab punch (or any technique really) I expect to get tagged a few times (at least) then I would expect the same against a knife.
    If I'm not getting tagged then some sort of training compromise is occurring and we need to be aware of what that compromise is (low energy, restricted targets, restricted responses/counters, artificial range maintenance, etc).
    I'd rather train with someone REALLY trying to tag me with a fake blade (like in that Aussie vid) than someone flowing with a really blade but not really trying to stick my vitals.
  4. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    To sum it up:

    Like in sparring, there are chances one will get "tagged when encountering a knife wielding opponent"

    (I like the comedian: Richard Pryor skit about a knife and "Macho Man" :)
  5. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Sure, all you say is very sensible, but a smattering of live blade training, for me, is part of that triangulation (for my personal training, not something I expect students to do).

    If you are careful about what you do and how you do it, you can have the intent to cut. But it is more about the psychological aspect for me. Live blade work has definitely informed how I train with training weapons.

    Also, no-one I know who has been attacked with a blade mentioned hesitating before they dealt with their attacker. I guess they might not still be around if they had.
  6. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    I dunno, in the demo we saw, the guy already had one hand on the knife arm. I think that's kind of a different situation than the one you're talking about, but I could be mistaken. I was just thinking that if I have one hand on the knife arm, my biggest priority is at that point not getting stabbed to shiitake. I wouldn't even mind taking a few hits to the face to not get shanked.
  7. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    The slap you talk about, is it a slap using both hands going down? If so I have been taught that before, by one of my former instructors. Unless im reading it wrong.
  8. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    No. One hand slaps on the knifing arm (because if you spot it you're going to do that anyway, the same way you slap a hand down if an animal jumps up at you unexpectedly). The other than thrusts forwards into their face. Unless you're up against a wall your body goes backwards a the same time (not really what you want though it may clear you slightly of the blade).
  9. LemonSloth

    LemonSloth Laugh and grow fat!

    I know this isn't a karate vid, but since we're talking about weapon defence, I wanted to bring this video up I saw earlier:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuZdefN6D5E"]Aikido-how to disarming shotgun - YouTube[/ame]

    Aside from the fact it looks like the dude performing the technique looks like he has never done it with any kind of resistance and it makes me want to cry...what would you guys have done differently?
  10. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    *BOLD* Not created/uploaded that video
  11. Dan93

    Dan93 Valued Member

    Load the gun!! I have done some rifle row disarm techniques when I studied Krav, We are always taught to verbally distract i.e. whats your favourite colour? and redirect the barrel/move offline before attempting a disarm.

    Only really did Krav for the Camo trousers really :)

    This would be fun with a paintball gun and some safety googles...
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2014
  12. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    We do it with simunition rounds - they sting a bit!
  13. Dan93

    Dan93 Valued Member

    Sounds like a blast! I will need to google this..
  14. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

  15. Dan93

    Dan93 Valued Member

  16. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    A. Live in England
    B. Thought "that guy over there's got a shotgun, I'd best go the other way"
    C. Brought a gun to a gunfight.
  17. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    As has already been mentioned the overwhelming majority of people have been stabbed before they've realised there's even a knife in play. There's another DART video that I can't find at the moment where I casually walk around and stab/slash 8 people, many of them likely fatally, and afterwards only the last guy who I stabbed in the face realised there'd been a knife at all. Therefore specific knife defence stuff is a bit redundant. It's better (I would suggest) that your H2H material is "blade aware". Certainly with my group I do very little strike absorption stuff, rule 1 is don't get hit (because it may be a knife you haven't seen).
    While it is in all likelihood that the knowledge of how it should be applied has been lost by the majority (the technique appears in my system and I teach it pretty exclusively as a hand fighting entry or as a grappling technique), I would just like to inject a thought that refers to the first question.
    I cross-train in Kali (been off for a bit actually,need to get back) and I've often wondered about stick techniques where you knock the stick with your wrist or catch the stick against your body, as surely these breed bad habits for when you use a bolo.
    For the past year or so I've also been exploring applications for Chinese sabre forms, and many movements there lend themselves to such actions as well. I was puzzled, and thought long and hard about why this should be. Looking for some context I started looking at HEMA stuff. Again I saw such movements, but it was when I saw the amount of blade grabbing that it struck me. It's because they were armoured.
    If you look at photos of 19th century Chinese security workers they are very often wearing padded jackets and vambraces, and indeed the vambraces are still part of the attire of many Southern Chinese stylists.
    This makes sense, if you're in a situation where there's a fair chance you're going to be in an armed fight you dress appropriately. For example I assume when Hannibal goes out he's wearing a stabproof (well in his case likely bulletproof) vest and slash resistant gloves. If you're wearing vambraces an X-block may well be a very effective defence.
  18. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Valued Member

    All interesting, but does the "average" person or "average" martial artist really "dress" for a situation?

    Apart from being a LEO, who really goes into a mall, theatre, restaurant carrying a weapon, or having protective gear

    (Not talking about Mitch/mankinis and SIB with a bowie knife)
  19. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    No, but my point is that the techniques may not be inherently flawed, they just may relate to a context that no longer exists.
  20. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Do you mean to say there are martial artists that don't practise their kicks or knee strikes when they try on a pair of trousers in a shop fitting room?

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