Weapons defense?

Discussion in 'Karate' started by Kframe, Jun 28, 2014.

  1. Remi Lessore

    Remi Lessore Valued Member

    cuts and cuts

    It's not a dumb question. Some do it.
    But their are cuts and cuts.
    Defensive and unfocused cuts to the hopefully fleshy forearms are going to be less dangerous than to the relatively unprotected tendons of the fingers inside the hand.
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2014
  2. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Here it is

    The knife is one of my regular EDC blades (a CRKT M21-14SFG) and is hair shaving sharp. The frill itself is NOT a "how to defend a knife attack" type of a deal, but is to get used to the flow and rhythm and angling. Singh will only does this with about 4 people worldwide, not because if the skill factor but because of the mental one - one panic or flinch and it is pretty messy (in fact in one demo someone panic kicked and was sliced from ankle to kneecap)

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGBj_6hkoEo"]Live Knife U- drill - YouTube[/ame]

    This was also four weeks after my quadruple hernia surgery and I was operating a less than peak efficiency. This makes me either brave or incredibly stupid depending on your view

    Comments and questions welcome
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 21, 2014
  3. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    I don't have any footage of the current drills or public footage of the old drills (which suffer from some of the flaws in the video I discussed).

    I've made a conscious decision not to go public in video with our knife stuff. It works most of the time for us because it is fully integrated with our unarmed stuff. If you don't do that you're not going to 'get it' and someone is always going to say 'that's too slow' or 'you could have hit him harder' etc. I also don't like the idea of people trying to learn it out of its proper context.
  4. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Both mate. :)

    I won't do any knife drill training with a live blade, I think the risks outweigh the benefits.
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2014
  5. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    The problem, for me, with Remi's video is the lack of control. Which, at the speed the techniques were shown isn't too much of a problem (especially with the attacker waiting for responses, rather than trying to gain the initiative, as in the video).

    I'm not personally a fan of double-grab controls, but I absolutely agree about needing to prevent disengaging. I noticed several points in Remi's video where a more canny attacker would have been twisting the blade around the parrying arm and probing with the blade far more enthusiastically (even at slow speed). [EDIT: much like Hannibal's live blade flow practice video above]

    One problem with knife defences is that for them to work well you have to be able to do three things simultaneously, with more speed and intent than your attacker, while they only have to do one thing. The only thing going for most defences is people's propensity for tactile fixation; if you are defending against someone who can keep their whole body in mind whilst attacking then gaining the initiative in a highly explosive and aggressive manner with a do-or-die technique is about all you have to stop them toying with you.
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2014
  6. Remi Lessore

    Remi Lessore Valued Member

    trying at home?!?!

    I won't try that at home.
    I think that this is what Gilles Hassine was talking about when he said we would get diced against knife specialists.
    But consider learnability (if that is a word - and I'm sure it is not).

    KM and JKD are like Marks and Spencers vs. Saville Row. JKD is made to measure. Good KM is like good quality off-the-shelf. Good made to measure will be better than even the best quality off the shelf, but good off the shelf is easier and quicker to get.

    Please spare me the embarrassment of the rubbish KM out there.

    Allowing for limited studying time learning this and other things, would it not be more time-efficient teaching someone to block and surge forwards to maintain contact and prevent reload, even if it might not work against a specialist, than what appears to be this very fine skill?
  7. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Going back to the Richard Douieb video you posted, what is the reasoning for mostly staying at a range perfectly comfortable for the attacker (ie. exactly where you were when they tried to stab you the first time)?
  8. Remi Lessore

    Remi Lessore Valued Member

    video production

    That's a good question.
    I think that video is now about 20 years old and they had not really understood the need for realism. But again, it is just a drill. The following sequence in the training vid (not in included here) shows Douieb moving around the attacker after the first block.
    He is a great instructor, but not so good at tech. and the need for it.

    In reality, from the first punch in the neck the attacker should be moving backwards - in which case the knee to the groin would be a shin or foot.
    If they have taken a punch to the throat and not moved backwards we are in trouble.
  9. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Ok, I think I'm missing something here...

    First, the age of the video is irrelevent, as I thought it was posted by you as a good example of KM "sewing machine" defence? Shouldn't drills reflect the real deal quite closely, albeit with variable speed and power?

    The bit in your quote I put in bold just does not compute at all :confused:

    And if you're moving your attacker backwards, presumably while you're moving forwards, then isn't this comfortable range for the knife-wielder is still an issue?
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2014
  10. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    ^^^This all day.

    If you have to recall entirely different techniques for empty hands, sticks and knives, you're going to get killed while you try to remember "which one do I do for this again?".
  11. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    I have to admit I don't normally grab the arm until I've already taken the posture and pinned the arm into a stationary position with my own arm and/or body. I just don't trust grabbing a vigorously moving arm. :)
  12. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    I'm no fan of live knife stuff after someone I knew vaguely back in Nottingham ended up with an inch worth of tanto in his thigh during Aikido.
    Just sheer luck meant ig went into the meat of his thigh and not his femoral artery.
    As jwt said...that kind of risk just doesn't do it for me in an activity that is about reducing physical harm.
  13. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    It's a demo and a rare one at that - hence Singh only does it with a handful of people and I am one of them

    I will do it about once or twice a year tops
  14. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    If reducing physical harm is your sole aim, then the above cannot be argued with (presuming you live in an area and have a career/lifestyle that make being attacked with a knife very unlikely).

    But consider the flip-side: confidence is king in a game where hesitation kills.

    You get someone who has only ever used training knives against someone who has trained with live blades. Who do you think is more likely to hesitate?

    Maybe it's dumb, but people do all kinds of dumb things pursuing their interests. I personally don't believe using live blades should be either encouraged or looked down upon. It's just something some people do in pursuing their interests.

    I am virulently ambivalent about it :)
  15. Simon

    Simon Moved on Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    I attended a seminar with Jay Dobrin many years ago and he turned up with a large aluminium baseball bat, an axe and plenty of live blades.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HSfGFyjtWak"]BIFF: Jay Dobrin & Phil Chenery. Knife to Knife Sparring - YouTube[/ame]

    I've defended against a live blade once during a demonstration with Lee Banda many moons ago.
    I must have had a strange look on my face because I recall him asking what I was doing. "Concentrating" was my reply.

    I've seen a live blade used once in class (not Lee Banda's) and there was a cut hand, so for me it isn't worth the risk.

    A shock knife isn't worth the expense, as you can't do a percussion disarm for fear of breaking the thing.

    For me the threat comes from a good feeder as much as it does the weapon.

    A good feeder will elicit a good response.
  16. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    It is certainly not recommended for daily or even regular training - for me it is a test of my personal limitations that keeps me humble

    I do NOT recommend or advise it for others..it's just something I do
  17. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    A bit like a certain MAP mod and his mankinis? Cough. :Angel:
  18. Bozza Bostik

    Bozza Bostik Antichrist on Button Moon

    I'm with Dobrin's BIFF group, we have PT-Kali in the club too, we occasionally train with live blades. It's more for confidence development as David mentioned, but you will get off line pretty damn quick and your techniques tend to be a bit sharper. There's no sloppy "passing" (redirecting the arm/weapon) and you could hear a pin drop in the club.

    But we progress up to it, as you'd imagine, we take things pretty slow and build up the speed and close the distance over time.

    I don't think I have ever sweated as much as when my instructor handed me a live machete and told me we would train with it.

    I agree with David and Hannibal; it's not for everyone and I don't think everyone should do it or be told to train with live blades.
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2014
  19. Remi Lessore

    Remi Lessore Valued Member

    technicicity and relevance

    Age of the video - he has better producers now I than then.
    Teaching and video production are different sciences. They can be useful to each other. RD is not a master of both.

    I posted as AN answer to the repeated stabbing question. I did not vaunt the video per se.

    Now the relevant question -
    The knife is offset while you surge forwards punching throat and kneeing/kicking and butting.
    There is one safe range - being elsewhere.
    The most dangerous range is at the attacker's arm's length. We try to be miles away or inside.
  20. Remi Lessore

    Remi Lessore Valued Member


    Where and when would you run a seminar/class next on this. I'd be very curious to attend.

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