Weapons defense?

Discussion in 'Karate' started by Kframe, Jun 28, 2014.

  1. Bozza Bostik

    Bozza Bostik Antichrist on Button Moon

    Ok, my mistake. For some reason I thought you'd done a few years of FMA, that's why I was a bit surprised by your comment. :)

    JWT summed it up better than I could. But as he wrote, getting offline and diverting the arm. The system I do focuses on corto (close) range and medio (medium), so it's not that much different from drills and techniques we do when you're not backed up against a wall or in a corner. Take that with a bucket of salt though, I'm pretty much a newbie.
  2. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    Is there any effective way for someone to stop the dreaded upwards sewing machine attack JWT mentioned? Not getting caught off guard, or a cross step side kick?
  3. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    I'm not an expert by any means, but this is the video that opened my eyes to the realities of knife defence. I'd imagine there's things you can probably do to help to some degree, but once its started I think you're more or less screwed.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E61jnJe_1SI"]The Reality Of Knife Attack - Deane Lawler @ the A.I.M Academy 2011 - YouTube[/ame]
  4. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Well if you've the distance to do a side kick then you don't need to worry about the sewing machine.

    I used to try and control that arm and work with it using a drill taken from a seminar in a martial art that will remain nameless. It worked great until we donned body armour and went at greater intensity, and then 5 stabs to the abdomen was the average result from an unexpected within 20cm range attack before the arm was controlled and the body was offline.

    A number of drills I've seen from other arts work well providing that the attacker starts out of stabbing range and doesn't commit fully to an attack.

    Personally I teach slapping onto the stabbing arm and into the face simultaneously as you flinch back and then moving round the opposite side to behind. You have to accept that if it is launched at that range your chances of not getting stabbed or cut are about zero, all you can do is try not to get stabbed more than once. I don't particularly like the drill I teach for this, but until I find a more reliable one it stays on the syllabus.
  5. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    That was a good video. It should be posted every time someone starts yapping about how they get taught knife defense.
  6. Remi Lessore

    Remi Lessore Valued Member

    actual defence

    I'm puzzled by the video. If I'm missing the obvious, let me know.
    At the beginning he seems to tell the attacker to demonstrate something he has learned today? Did he show the students that defence?
    After the sequence shown, does he go on and demonstrate something that could work in that situation?
    Was any MAPer there? Lily?
  7. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    I'm inferring from the video:

    - He spent the day showing defence techniques, the kind you'd see in average krav for instance, against an opponent flashing a knife or attacking once with it.

    - He then demonstrated on the poor guy that when an attacker comes at you with the same technique and you know its coming you can defend against it

    - Straight after he demonstrates that that's great and all, but real life violence does not look or work like that and then demonstrates what a real attack looks like and briefly mentions the emotional and pre-attack aspects.

    - The drill afterwards, as far as I can tell, is simply giving them all the same experience the demonstration guy in red got: This is a real attack. This is what it will be like.

    I don't think the point of the final part was for them to defend and live, it was to show them what real life would be like instead of the presumably comfortable feel of the rest of the seminar where they would have been trading techniques in a normal martial arts fashion.
  8. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    I can still remember the 'mess up factor' of the last seminar I taught on knife defence techniques.

    We started with a 90 minute lecture on violent crime, knife crime, use of force and the law including photos of blade injuries and footage of real events.

    We then had a few hours slowly doing the drills I taught at the time.

    The students then donned body armour and tried to defend themselves with each other attacking.

    The defences fell apart, as you'd expect. They fell apart because:
    1. Most of the students weren't used to making hard physical contact or psychologically prepped to do so.
    2. Most of the students weren't used to the verbal and psychological context of the attacks.
    3. A few hours isn't enough to ingrain good responses, even if they are biomechanically sound and work from natural behaviours.
    4. You can't just bolt something different onto your repertoire and expect it to work.

    These were all great students, including 2 Mappers off the top of my head. There was nothing wrong with them, the fault (if anything) is in the idea that you can do a knife defence seminar and come away with a magical new ability to defend yourself (and I doubt any of the adults present thought that to begin with). That isn't ever going to be the case. What you can do is come away with greater respect for blades, a greater appreciation of your 'current' weaknesses/limitations, and an idea as to things to train that will improve your chances in the low percentage likelihood that fighting is the only option.
  9. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    I did respect the guy in the video for doing a session on defence techniques and rounding it off by going "this was fun and all, but yeah, they're not going to help much"

    Also speaking of willingness to strike hard, one of the women in that video during the drill is proper going for her partner's face on the floor.
  10. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    I both like that video and dislike it.

    I like it because it's 100% accurate about not only knife defence, but just being attacked without a knife too.

    I dislike it because he didn't apologize to the kid afterwards :p
  11. Remi Lessore

    Remi Lessore Valued Member

    simultaneous block and counter?

    I was once told that that fatal stabbings average 11 wounds. This is calculated between those who are killed with one wound to a vital organ or artery, and those who get stabbed multiple times. I once saw a guy at the morgue who had received 62 knife wounds from his brother.

    May I venture this as a possible answer to the 'sowing machine'. We would not call this a solution since in a knife attack the defender will most likely be injured and may only be conscious of the knife after they have been stabbed. Even a non-fatal wound might put us into shock and if we do not eliminate the threat immediately we might be unable to do so very soon after the first injury.

    [ame="www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0-GTwcegLU"]Richard Douieb Demonstrates the Krav Maga 360 defence - YouTube[/ame]

    Comments welcome, but just to explain what you are viewing:
    We are very aware of what you call sowing machine attacks.
    Also, bear in mind that this is a drill rather than a real attack simulation which would be much more like the video that Lily posted.

    The drill is supposed to build conditioned reflexes so that we do not get stabbed too many times if we cannot avoid being stabbed at all.
    So, the Israeli principle is attack when attacked, rather than take cover. This can spoil their aim, and might buy you a moment to recover and escape or disarm, etc. If you manage to punch repeatedly in the throat and make hard contact with the groin and they are not completely cracked out, you stand a chance.

    So the video shows:
    Simultaneous block and strike. The video shows a punch in the face. In seminars I have always seen Richard Douieb punch to the throat for this sort of attack.
    For this attack and range, the block has to be at right angles to the attacker’s arm - in this case a block not unlike a high section karate or tkd block. This is painful to both, but mainly the attacker whose inner forearm is exposed, especially for an upward strike (2nd part of the sequence). The right angle gives the whole length of the forearm from elbow to knuckle as the blocking area. We do not know exactly what angle it will come at. From the grip we can make a guess, if we see it.

    Immediately on contact, or before, is a surge forwards. This hopes to anticipate the attacker’s arm reloading and following it back. After the forearm block the hand of the blocking arm seeks to grab the wrist while the other hand repeatedly piston punches throat or palm heels nose, and the knee/shin/foot comes upwards to the groin. The grip on the wrist can serve to redirect the forearm if the counter attacks to the groin, throat and face have not worked.

    If the wrist grab is missed we would keep striking while maintaining the guard on the weapon side in order to make another hard block if necessary - if escape or attacker incapacitation not yet achieved.
    After the strike to the throat/face with the other hand, attempt to grip the clothes holding the forearm across the throat. This is to anchor the attacker to receive the knee and head-butt.

    Having said this,
    1. We have trained with red marker pens. Everyone gets cut – but less is better than more.
    2. If the initial position is as in the Lawler video – with a large man pinning you across the upper chest to a wall and the knife hand loaded back, I think you would have to ignore the weaponed hand and to sharply force your way right into the attacker’s left. If you break free of the wall, hit and RUN.

    When I was a KM beginner I did speak to an FMA student about this upward 360 block against a downward attack – I don’t know how experienced he was. He questioned it showing that a backward raking with the knife would slice the forearm. Thinking I was clever, I did it to my KM instructor. He pointed out that he was simulating the punch to the throat.
    We did it again with my chest as his target rather than the Adam’s Apple. I understood that the fist has a shorter trajectory than the blocking arm and impacts before the mind can send the signal to rake back with the knife *(assuming the target was the torso rather than a trick to get at the arm). The upper block is a safeguard.
    When I started breathing again, I resolved to question techniques differently in future.

    This is not a comment on FMA. Having trained with Dan Inosanto Gilles also said that a good knife specialist would slice most KMers into bits. But most attackers are not specialists in anything.

    in KM we are often told that the strike is more important than the block. Effective striking can discourage repeated stabbing. Whereas a block will be followed by another stab if there is not a good strike or two or five with it.

    or we could all learn to use this:
    [ame="www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsfT5qyT8gw"]EFO Emptyforce - YouTube[/ame]
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 21, 2014
  12. Remi Lessore

    Remi Lessore Valued Member

    simultaneous block and counter?

    Duplicate post.
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2014
  13. philosoraptor

    philosoraptor carnivore in a top hat Supporter

    Personally, I think that video demonstrated some very unrealistic and uncommitted attacks on the part of knife wielder Remi. I get that it's a drill, but why drill against someone attacking like a bad Chop Socky movie extra? I did not see the attacker attempt anything like the sewing machine attack.

    Also, if it were me, I'd be holding onto that knife hand with more than just a wrist grab.
  14. Remi Lessore

    Remi Lessore Valued Member

    As I said (and you) it's a drill. The knife is pulled back by the attacker but as teh defender is surging forwards it does not get to re-strike.
    As I also said, when we do it with pens, we all end with red strips. But fewer are better than more.
  15. Remi Lessore

    Remi Lessore Valued Member

    The trouble with grabbing the wrist with both hands is that it leaves no guard to protect from the other hand punching and grabbing.
    So we keep striking until we can grab with both hands. Or flee.

    Definitely not perfect, I know.
  16. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    I can't remember if it was the guy in the video I linked (it might have been Blaeur) but I saw a video dealing with the sewing machine attack exactly as in the video and he said that there's a mistake with SD where they focus on controlling the knife. He said that in that situation there's nothing you can do about the knife and that the real problem was the arm pinning you in place. HE had the students try to control the knife, where they all invariably got stabbed to hell, and then try removing the pinning arm and then they started breaking away. They still took hits, but it was a much more survivable encounter.

    I'm not sure how accurate that was but I found it interesting.
  17. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Hi Remi

    Thanks for sharing.

    The entry first vid you show is related to my approach to the downwards ice pick (as opposed to upwards sewing machine I was discussing) although I do it at a much closer initiation range. I used to do it forwards as per your video but now I turn on initial entry as it makes it easier to carry the arm to an isolated behind the back position and brings the head down, thus attacking the posture more and making you less vulnerable to any kind of resistance for knee strikes. I used to do a similar finish (kick and koto gaeshi) to that drill in one of our other knife drills, but found it unworkable once contact was introduced as the attacker could get knocked away (while still holding a blade) from the grip of the defender through the defender's hits. As a result we no longer do that finish as a taught move in any of our drills.
  18. Remi Lessore

    Remi Lessore Valued Member


    I'm not great at visualisation. Do you have a link illustrating that?
    Time mark 0:42 onwards in the vid shows an upward attack that would become 'sowing machine' but for the forward surge.
  19. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    This could be an incredibly dumb question. Putting that out there :p

    If the accepted idea in knife defence is that you're more than likely going to get cut or stabbed anyway, then instead of the various grip strips I see people using to remove knives would it not be easier to grab the blade and twist it out of their grip instead? Judging from how badly I strip grips off my gi compared to the lever (?) mechanics of twisting something straight out of a fist it seems like it would be easier?
  20. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    The trouble with NOT grabbing with both hands is that the weapon is easily disengaged and re-engaged! :D

    Somewhere I have a video of me doing a live blade drill...I will try and dig it out

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