Weapons defense?

Discussion in 'Karate' started by Kframe, Jun 28, 2014.

  1. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    considering that the history of karate is well documented, i would be wary of such things.

    additionally, it would be ridiculous for karate to have weapon-related curriculums when okinawans have both multiple comprehensive multi-weapon systems of their own (okinawan kobudo, including such things as staff, sickles, combined knife and shield and even oars), and proper war weaponry for their upper classes (including sword and spear).

    barring stuff like wado-ryu's tanto-dori, as far as i am aware the vast majority of karate weapon training (both use and defense) is either okinawan kobudo, or something adapted from other sources, or just plain made up.
  2. Dillon

    Dillon Valued Member

    The difficulty in even seeing the knife in the video is one of the reasons it doesn't make a ton of sense to invest in "anti knife" training as a separate skillset. In most encounters where a knife is involved, the people in the encounter don't realize it until after. Knives are more often a tool for assassination than for "fighting." If you're concerned about dealing with knives, *all* of your self defense training should be as up to code in that aspect as possible.
  3. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    I have been thinking on this topic for a bit. It was said earlier, "we should learn movements against movements". I was reading that many that fight off knife attacks, don't even know there was a knife involved. Its my thinking that, maybe to have any chance at dealing with a knife you have to actually have a good unarmed skill set.

    Mcdojo karate will not give you good unarmed skill, so it stands to reason that its usefulness against weapons is non existent.

    Looking at many of the drills we are doing(im only new at karate so im not sparring yet) and watching some of the higher belts, do there drills, they focus on receiving the strike and countering. Maybe there should be more controlling? Like receive/capture/lock.
    However I was reading my favorite karate blogger and he seams to be a advocate of stop the slow moving parts( forearm/shoulder) and hard counter. Which seams far more direct and faster but, imho with a risk of loosing control of the weapon hand if your counter doesn't work.

    So what do you think guys, am I on the right track so far?

    In my fma class we did a basic knife defense against a low thrust to the solar plexus. It was so similar to karate it was scary. Step to 45degrees, and a dual arm defense and capture. The dual arm defense part of the thing(its all real quick, and seamless but this part stood out) looks a heck of a lot like a simultaneous Inside shuto uke(I think that's the right name, shuto uke from outside to inside) and gedan shuto barai into a capture and disarm.

    Oh well, just me thinking out loud.
  4. Archibald

    Archibald A little koala

    I agree with the idea if controlling the body first, which as you said is "critical mass", and then dealing with the knife hand - impossible though it may be (successful knife defence I mean) if you have to do it I think that's the ticket. Trying to control the wrist straight away is a bit like trying to control a snake by holding on to its tail.

    I also think the most important skill set to have is supreme control of timing and distance so ironically some boxing training would go a long long way if you were trying for knife defence.
  5. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    Archibald my first 6 months of training were in straight boxing. I regret not sticking with it and moving on to mma. However it did serve me well in my mma class's.

    I am not going to fret and loose sleep over knife work though. Because when it comes down to it, no one knows how you will react under a real threat. I know that if im attacked it wont be just me, I have a family and a son with special needs.. There is no retreat in my deck of cards. In the end, ill do what I have to do. I intend to make weapon play a regular part of my training. I think in the end, that's about all I can do.
  6. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Coming into this late...

    I wondered why Mitch wanted a link to the sofa bundle video. :)

    That same video is on youtube combined text explanations with a second video showing a better response. Quite a few Mappers in the second video.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wkH_Dnft2M0"]Concealed Knife in Simulation Training - YouTube[/ame]

    With regard to knife training and choice of training blade, there are pros and cons to each. About 6 years ago I had a rubber knife snap at the hilt when a panicking student put his hand straight against the point of the blade. With the force and intensity involved an aluminium or wooden knife would have gone through his hand. As a result I've stuck to rubber knives ever since. Although the rubber ones we use are single blade knives, I always treat them as if they are double and we don't do any drills that involve pushing on the blade in any way (linked to likely success rates when acting under high adrenaline) so we have no need for firmer blades.

    The OP might want to look at this article and the excellent discussion afterwards:

    From my perspective if you are including some form of blade defence within your curriculum it must be integrally linked to your unarmed responses and drills. If you just try and bolt something on, no matter how good it is, it won't be as effective as something that shares its core approaches and movements with your unarmed syllabus.
  7. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    On a linked note, there are few things more pleasurable than seeing Mitch enjoy a good knees up on a Saturday, and at 2.42 he shows us how it's done.
  8. Remi Lessore

    Remi Lessore Valued Member

    weapons and karate

    A few years ago I was studying TKD and which is like shotokan and despaired of what they called self-defence and the chance of it being any use in any kind of fight, let alone a weapons attack. Other than being at the right range for a kick. They do kick like horses!

    But I began researching and found very intelligent analysis of kata by a Iain Abernethy and others who explain the grappling within the kata, and I found other things that put karate/taekwondo teaching into context.

    For example, much of the jerkiness of the movements comes from early manuals being in photo sequences in books. So people thought they had to move from one position to another hard and fast. Sometimes correct, sometimes not.
    Some of the lack of realism could also have came from early refusal to explain moves properly to occupying American servicemen and other non-initiates. This secrecy/ignorance took root and many people - even high grades - really do not know what the moves are for.

    Some of the poomsae/kata were also devised for school kids and aimed at giving them particular motor skills which would later be useful when you put a rifle and/or bayonet in their hands.
    I also found a reference to TKD having been used by South Korean special forces during the Vietnam war, and I thought that this could not be possible if what they were taught was like what I was being taught. There had to be proper weapons and fighting applications.

    Then I found krav maga and did not look back. But KM has given me a proper respect for TKD and karate because I already knew the TKD poomsae up to 1st dan. Like you, when comparing to FMA, I have found a lot of similar moves as those in the poomsae/kata but which are explained with a proper understanding of fighting against weaponed attacks and with weapons.

    So in answer to your original post, I do believe that karate has proper weapons applications and defences, but I do not think they are properly understood by most karateka or TKD practitioners, for that matter.
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2014
  9. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Good video, love the editing :)
  10. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    Jwt thanks for the links. It makes sense that your knife defense must be linked to you unarmed responses and drills. Which makes the odd knife self defense they do on karate videos look so awfull.. They toss out most of the unarmed stuff they do, and start using techniques that they clearly don't use often. Namely that ridiculous x block. I know in our system it only comes up a few times in the totality of the kata.

    I find it fascinating that I found basic and frequently used karate movements in the fma knife drill. Which to me was a light bulb moment..

    I still don't understand why so many karate systems think the x block is the best thing for knife defense? Why they bother with it in any form at all is a mystery.
  11. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Juji Uke is a great technique, but I can't say I ever use it in a blade context (or kick stopping context), or indeed thrust both hands out together (one first, then the other).
  12. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    JWT I read your article and I learned much from it. You have given me some fantastic ideas with your 10 steps.

    JWT in your experience, I was hoping for your opinion. Earlier I asked if we should focus on deflection then control and subdue or as my favorite karate blogger states his teacher thinks that hard and immediate counters are we are called for. (striking is what im talking about)

    Here is the article im talking about. http://dandjurdjevic.blogspot.com/2013/09/dealing-with-knife-attacks.html
  13. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    JWT you say its great but not for knives or kick stopping. If that's the case im lost as to what you would use it for? I don't know how feasible it is to use 2 hands against 1 punch. However im a newb so take my thoughts with a grain of salt..

    Now recently our Sichidan instructor held a class on the x block. I feel it was mostly aimed at the black belts but I got something out of it. The way he had us doing it felt more like a parry/parry were if you took snapshot at the right moment looked like the x block. Now that movement he had us doing was very similar to a movement we did in our first Hubud lubud in my fma class.

    I wonder if the stereotypical x block as found in kata is really a hard block at all but merely a placeholder for something softer?
  14. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Off the top of my head...

    Raking down the head, holding it and striking with the second hand using proprioception from the first hand.
    Checking a leg when the head is pulled down in a clinch and punching over the top into the groin.
    Covering the face and torso on the inside and then clearing any limbs or attacking when 'inside' or 'outside' and moving from low to high.
    Checking and clearing in a clinch (as shown by Levo in the MAP Meet 13).

    Attached Files:

  15. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Approach this logically. Assuming an attack is already in progress...

    What do you need in order not to get stabbed?
    You need to be out of the path of the blade, whether it is thrusting forwards, sweeping, hooking, hacking. You either need to be in a position where it can't touch you, or can barely scrape you.

    What does the attacker need in order to stab you?
    They need to be conscious.
    They need to have control of the blade.
    They need to be able to move their attacking arm.
    They need to be able to move their body.

    Your priority is always not to be in the line of the blade's movement in a way that the blade can slash or stab you. Knocking out the other guy is fantastic, but not if he or she has just cut your carotid or pierced your aorta at the same time.

    Whether to control (and that doesn't mean grab) the arm or hit first is not really the right question. It depends. It is about positioning and opportunity. I never grab an active arm, only an arm that I've otherwise immobilised.

    If you can do all three of these at the same time, great.

    In this vidcap a student has mucked up and been forced to shift from inside (where he was) to outside (which is actually better) as the knife has been sewing machined up and down. His left hand position gives away the fact that he was once inside and unable to control the hacking arm.
    Knife mistake1.jpg

    In the follow through photo his weight is now being brough to bear against that arm and in a moment it will be fully immobilised, sandwiched between his chest and his right thigh.
    Knife mistake2.jpg
  16. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    Hmm much to think on, thanks JWT. One thing im picking up on is the importance of evasion. I cant wait for my next knife class now..
  17. Bozza Bostik

    Bozza Bostik Antichrist on Button Moon

    You've done FMA, right? Wasn't evasion drilled into you?
  18. Kframe

    Kframe Valued Member

    I have done a grand total of 7 class's in fma. Im a newb. So far yes we are doing evasive movement with just about everything. Hence part of the reason for my comment.
  19. Remi Lessore

    Remi Lessore Valued Member


    What do FMA teach when there is not space to evade?
    Would you have a video?
  20. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Hi Remi

    I don't think either of us mean evasion purely in the sense of keeping distance or stepping to the side. I certainly mean being offline from the angle of attack (and prefer to be close) and diverting the arm movement (where possible - almost impossible IME for sewing machine upward stabs). These are all possible to do in tight spaces and I prefer to do the majority of my work in tight spaces then expand the distance once the student is comfortable there.

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