Weapon History

Discussion in 'Weapons' started by Chazz, Mar 4, 2002.

  1. Chazz

    Chazz Keepin it kickin TKD style

    I know we all at one time have had the question about a weapon. "Where did this come from?"

    Use this section if you have questions that you would like to ask about a weapons history or if you would just like to post the history or facts about one.

    -Chazz
     
  2. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter

    Right how about Sai, ancient bail lifting tool? Was it b8%%8cks! Surely a lie invented by okinawins (I just know i spelt that wrong) so that they had a weapon (imported from china) and a 'legitimate' reason for carrying it. That their Japanese invaders believed this, well.

    Any takers?
     
  3. Chazz

    Chazz Keepin it kickin TKD style

    Well this is some of the history of the Sai that i have been told and read about.

    During a troubled era in Okinawan history it served its purpose in providing a people, denied the right to bear arms, a weapon they regarded as vital to self-preservation. It wassnt carried everywhere by people but was out and around by people who were working in the fields. Originally the sai was just a simple pitchfork-type farm instrument used to bail grass and for planting seeds by being pressed into the earth. But, as it evolved, it was used in killing or maiming an enemy when it was accurately thrown. One version of the sai does have sharpened edges but most are flat or rounded. Now, basically, the sai is used to develop poise, posture and dignity, essential to the martial arts.

    -Chazz
     
  4. Pablo

    Pablo New Member

    I tend to figure that origination stories, whether for styles, or forms, or weapons, are primarily important for their entertainment value, so if anyone has a different concept about the Sai, please don't take my version as having any contradictory intent.
    Given that the agricultural work in Okinawa was accomplished for centuries with a preponderance of *wooden* implements, I thought it noteworthy that the Sai was a metal weapon with no apparent cutting utility. Seems like a waste of something as hard to obtain and work with as metal.
    Looking at the capacity of wooden pitchforks/hayrakes from Okinawa and other places, it also struck me as odd that metal should be expended in making something with as small a capacity for lifting as a Sai has.
    Finally, looking at other places and times where it was expedient to form metal into a compact rod shape with a couple of extrusions, I found a commonality in fishing implements, not agricultural. In the latter scenario, metal is more resistant to salt and sun exposure than wood, and is worth carrying for its heft.
    The prongs on a Sai are more to the measure of gills, not grain, and the shape (ideal for a belaying pin, and/or fish gaff), is found in metal in many places worldwide.
    So, without having actually been there, I am personally comfortable with the version that I was told by a ****o Ryu instructor quite some time ago. The Sai was a fishing tool, made by pouring molten metal into wet sand forms, (such as on the beach) which had been done for hooks and other metal fishing implements for years. When attacked, any of the Okinawans from fishing villages would already have a good idea of the striking capabilities of the Sai, and probably quickly learned to adapt the gaffing portion against other weapons.

    Anyway, just some conjecture on my part, FWIW

    paul/pablo
     
  5. pesilat

    pesilat Active Member

    The origins I heard about the sai (regarding Okinawa anyway) was that it was a cotter pin to hold a horse team to a cart. I would imagine that it was originally wooden.

    The sai is also used in Indonesia and is known as "trisula" or "tjabang" and, as I understand it, was always a weapon ... though I think it started as a trident spearhead.

    Mike
     
  6. Kosokun

    Kosokun Valued Member


    Mythology.

    Current trend in thought with the sai was that it was always a weapon. The weapon was imported into Okinawa from China or S.E Asia, where weapons similar to the sai in shape and design have been prevalent for millenia.

    My kobudo instr. (a native born Okinawan) tells me that he hadn't heard of the weapons ban story and its impact on karate and kobudo until he came to the US. Kind of interesting, since one might think that this sort of imposed ban would be taught in his history classes, growing up. I had to take California History as a boy growing up in California.

    Anyway, he tells me that the Sai was used by local law enforcement of the day as an instrument of attitude adjustment and persuasion. ;-) So, it hardly was the "Potato gun" or "Molotov Cocktail" of it's day. Also, he says that every household had a sword. The sword was a family heirloom. Swords were expensive, for the everyday folk, as they or the ore, had to be imported from Japan. Consequently, the people didn't want to get them messed up by squabbling with them. So, instead, they used bo, sai, etc. One doesn't need to be as careful of the path of a bo, say, as one does with the cutting edge of a sword during the cut.


    Rob
     
  7. Kosokun

    Kosokun Valued Member


    I've been told that the quality of the ore available on okinawa, from which to make metal implements, was poor. The good steel came from Japan or other places. So, maintenance of an edge would be a problem. Perhaps that's why it wasn't edged. Besides, why put an edge on it, when bonking someone on the head would kill him just as dead as cutting him?

    Rob
     
  8. Pablo

    Pablo New Member

    ..the quality of the ore available on okinawa, from which to make metal implements, was poor. The good steel came from Japan or other places. So, maintenance of an edge would be a problem...

    This sounds right, the Japanese definitely had a bit of an edge when it came to swords.

    :D


    However, the kama and sickle were certainly good enough to cut grain with wooden handles, so I still suspect that metal clubs were more likely to be found among fisher-folk.

    Still just my guess though.

    thanks

    paul
     
  9. Andrew Green

    Andrew Green Member

    Sai

    Sai where developed as a weapon, they came from China, and before that indonesia.

    They where used as a law enforcment weapon by the Peichin class of Okinawa.

    They may also used for self-defence by the aristocratic class.

    Whether or not some farmers carried them and made up stories... There hasn't been any evidence that I know of, most likely filled in by North Americans who picked up bits and pieces of history and guessed the rest.

    Some weapons where farm tools, is different from all weapons where farm tools.
     
  10. Pablo

    Pablo New Member

    I had been made aware that weapons like the jitte, which seem to be related to the Chinese Iron Ruler, (and possbly some fan weapons or Ermei needles/deerhorn type of weapons) were used under the concept of the 'Palace Hand'. The spacing of the protrusion on these weapons is typically quite different from the Sai, which as I mentioned earlier, does match the spacing on gaffs found in many cultures, at many times..

    I wasn't aware of (which doesn't mean there isn't any) documentation, even from the educated classes, that show a link between the jitte like weapons, and the Sai.
    Does anyone on the list know of a non speculative reference for the connection, or is it just a matter of the similarity in appearance?

    Thanks

    paul
     

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