Have a look through the ninjutsu forum and find the thread on Kukan i started, its a conversation on what people thinks Hatsumi is teaching about Kukan at the moment, a few good comments on there from some high ranking people, its all about timing, balance and distance!!
OK, so then at one point - if you follow your line of reasoning in regards to 'space'... one wouldn't really have to focus what the opponent/assialant/enemy was doing - but merely focus on the space around them? So for instance if you wanted to test this theory out... You take someone who is highly skilled in 'watching space' and you show them a tape of two people about to get in an altercation... only you black one side of the screen out just enough so that all the person can see is one person and the 'space'... Judging from that 'space' that's still available to be seen on the tape could the 'watching space' guy predict what attack or move was going to come without ever having to see the assailant? I am failing to see how this is intrisically different than what a boxer does in the ring by using peripheral vision and distancing or how people who monitor CCTV cams what for situations to escalate.
You're moving in the right direction! I've posted this before, but perhaps it bears repeating: (http://www.bujinkansf.org/faq/#distinguish) As an example of what I'm talking about, last week I was talking about the distinction between what Ben has referred to as "kuzushi-based" (kuzushi refers to taking an opponent's balance) versus "kukan-based" (using space) taijutsu, and one black belt asked for a concrete example; so I had him try to punch me a couple of times. The first time I softly redirected his punch, unbalanced him, and took him down. . .all very subtle and soft, but all done through direct physical touch. The second time I evaded, redirected his energy and the "shape" that his body assumed, took him down in an arm-bar, and immobilized him. At the point of the immobilization I was only touching him very softly on the forearm. . .and it took him a few moments to realize that, up to the point where he was on the ground, I had not touched him at all. Nope, not at all. What we're (primarily) talking about is the "shape of the interactive space between combatants. The idea of "shape" here only has meaning inasmuch as it applies to all combatants simultaneously: It applies to the positioning in space, as it evolves through time, of all elements of all combatants' bodies and weapons in relation to each other. It's much the sort of shift in perspective that's required in viewing art by M.C. Escher, for example.
hmmm great post dale!,i remember watching hatsumi and he refers to floating around in the space like a butterfly when explaining how he had just controlled the space around his uke !,when training i always keep this in mind in the hope of gaining this sort of feeling and to help me understand.
This has been really useful. Nice to know im not just seeing things anyway. So is what i am starting to look into Kukan? or is Kukan a seperate idea. Do you know of any books/ articles that discuss Kukan? Cheers.
Kukan Well, yes.... I test the theory out everytime I teach. If the theory holds, then certain hypotheses can be proved "not false." I must admit that reading this description was as painful to my brain as probably you are feeling reading Dale and my explanations. Dale is correct for most relevant kukan. For me, however, I actually also include stuff in the space NOT BETWEEN the combatants in my conceptualization. I believe that three things exist in the environment--the objects (people, trees, cars), the empty space, and the kukan (which I personally see as transparent BALLS of various sizes hanging in the air around the objects). These balls are between the opponents, but also in the space around the opponents. The easiest one to manipulate is the one between the opponents, from what I've discovered. When I train, I focus my efforts on trying to keep control of these balls, which shift and try to change shape as the uke and myself move in the environment. Fists, feet, bodies, etc. all "change the shape" of the space (as Dale describes), putting pressure on these balls and moving them about. I focus on trying to keep the balls of the size and position that I need in order to affect the uke. This is why I argue that the goal of Taijutsu is not to control the opponent. Controlling the opponent is a result, a consequence, of having controlled the kukan. I admit it sounds strange, and is not a "normal" way of training. But for me, it has proved to be fascinating, and has helped explain a LOT of what I saw in Japan but never could do. So I'll keep at it.... I've written two articles so far in BujinMag, a new online magazine for the Bujinkan. I will be travelling to a few cities later this year (New York City, Austin, San Francisco) to share some concrete exercises that I've developed to help students move from "Kuzushi-based" taijutsu to "Kukan-based" taijutsu. I'm more than willing to travel to other cities, if asked (and if I can find time). Hope that helps! -ben
If you can make it over to the UK id be more than interested to hear what you have to say :wink: I have plans to travel next summer, and visit some friends over the USA and Canada so hopefully i can drop in at some US dojo's en route. I was going to get a subscription to the magazine and that seems as good a reason as any. I have to say the things that i've been noticing wern't balls as such. I dont know if you'll follow my train of thought but i'll give it a go. Do you know those puzzles where there is a space and there is maybe 12 smaller shapes that can be moved around to fit into the bigger shape? Well on my observations, which admitedly havnt been that many as i only noticed it recently, i saw that it is possible to move some of the shapes around, while still keeping the same shape. However more importantly these shapes are forms by themselves, but are essentially formless when connected to other shapes. A triangle can make up a part of a square for instance. The idea that i had was of trying to realise that by moving these little shapes around (the ones that are in the space between you and an uke) then it is possible to entirley manipulate the shape into another, that is more to our liking, or recognition. Not sure if that makes sense. If it dosent i'll try and get some illustration to go with it, as thats how i confirmed it in my mind.
hmmm... ok. I won't event try to draw any of my own analogies and just deal with the M.C. Escher one you've given me. err... Well ok... just one more (he says as he shakes his head) This will be a stretch... but bear with me guys.... It's something similar to how you have to alter/supsend your perception of time/space that has been formed by Newtonian physics since you were a kid... in order for you to be able to catch the drift of Quantum Physics as an adult? LOL! That's perhaps even more hopeless than my prior description/anaology that hurt Bencoles brain (apologies Bencole).
So do I, but I didn't want to induce any greater degree of cerebral flatulence in our readers than I was doing already. That's the reason for my precise wording: "What we're (primarily) talking about. . ." I can't say for sure; however, Soke has been referring constantly to it in training for some years now.
Well, you never know.... You are not the first person from the UK who has expressed an interest in these ideas. Makes complete sense to me! Very nice. While I personally see balls, I see nothing wrong with others seeing other things. Perhaps you've found something that I haven't! Keep playing with the ideas in your training. I think I can safely say that understanding the components of the space and how they can be manipulated is key to understanding Hatsumi-sensei's art. Moreover, it WILL NOT harm your Taijutsu, imo. It will force you to be better by taking you away from the idea of manipulating the uke for effect. Good luck! -ben
Ah! Sorry about that, Dale. Must've slipped my eyes.... I don't know either, but the Kukan has been an extremely important point for years now.... -ben
If you are trying to explain why our brains hurt, then YES, that analogy is quite apt! The way I see it, if you have been raised to do "Kuzushi-based Taijutsu" (which is the idea of manipulating the uke to take the balance in order to make one's throws/strikes/etc. more effective), it is very difficult to wrap one's brain around the idea of doing "Kukan-based Taijutsu." It just is.... That's why it is hard for people to just "do an exercise" and "get it." One must instead take out your old eyes and replace them with a new pair. Every practice in my dojo focuses on these issues. It's not just every once in a while. One needs to be exposed over and over and over to the same concepts until one day you say, "I see the ball!" Then you are ready to start learning all the cool stuff, such as manipulating the size and position, "popping" the ball, stretching it, and so on. Very nifty stuff! -ben
So... Would this be an effective way of rephrasing what you're talking about? 1. take a picture of 2 people facing one another. 2. fill in their bodies and any relevant objects with white, and everything else with black. 3. Observe the shape and size of the black shape between them (which is defined by their bodies acting as outlines). 4. What you are doing is observing and manuipulating this black shape by positioning and moving your body. I'm not sure this is exactly what you're talking about, but it works for me. If it isn't a simplified version of what you mean, please let us know. I'd like to understand this concept.
so would looking at those pictures(the ones that don't look like anything, you stare at them for ages, get a headache but sudenly see something) help tran your brain to see kukan? @ ben is it possible to draw the balls (no pun) on dale's face/candle stick pic, for clarity ?
wow. amazing thread. still dont quite get it, but even before understanding the main point im learning huge amounts.. im printing this off lol.
