Hey folks, I have confusion over Wardoff and Rollback, not knowing what they are to be specific! I have been reading T'ai Chi Ch'uan Ta Wen by Chen Wei-Ming again and he speaks of Wardoff and Rollback. He says that "Use Wardoff straight ahead or horizontally, up or down, always sticking to your opponents arm or hand and changing direction at any time so as not to let him find a center on your arm or leg on why to release energy...Use Rollback, up or down, or horizontally, and with a snapping energyto break his arm." Earlier in the chapter he says Press and Push is done on the front foot and Wardoff and Rollback is down on the rear foot, so it indicates that Wardoff and Rollback is a defensive action, so to speak. Could someone perhaps give an alternative description for me, I am sure when they are broken down I will recognise them, but as it stands I am unsure. Is it just a method of practising and/or applying Peng, Lu, Ji and An?
Yes its just a quick method of applying peng lu ji and an. I'd really like to see someone break someone elses arm using rollback - have met some cracking taiji dudes, and none of them have done that!
A most interesting topic for a thread indeed, Mr Brido! (I am no expert on this, being a humble beginner, but I will endeavour to answer your post ) Are you sitting comfortably? Then I shall begin lol... I practice a variant of the "Yang Cheng Fu form" (which is what Chen Wei Ming practiced also). (The Yangs have a lot to answer for on this count btw, but I'll come back to that later on... ) I am unfamiliar with Dan Docherty's form/style (which I believe is what you practice?) so I wonder if part of the confusion lies there? Do you have a sequence called "Grasping Sparrow's Tail" (or even "Lazily hanging the Coat")? If you do, then "ward off" (peng) is the move where the forward arm is lifted more or less horizontally in a 'parry' or forearm type gesture to about chest height or so and the rear hand is pressing downwards. This is to 'ward off' or 'push out' an intruding force and creates the basic energy scenario from which all the other jins are built. "Rollback" (lu) develops from peng and is where the forward palm turns down and the rear turns up, the body turns and the weight shifts to the rear foot, the arms 'rolling back' literally. The idea is to absorb and 'roll' the incoming force with an apparently 'soft' yielding movement that actually leads the attacker off balance and to the side. Both moves have an 'energy only' (push hands) aspect and a 'martial' (fighting) aspect - but the basic principle is the same in both applications, only intent and application varies. 'Always stick' applies to push hands and not to actual fighting imo(although you can 'stick' if you wish to) As your opponent presses against your peng, you allow it to cave in somewhat and roll back. (The opponent should feel as though he is in control at this point, but it is actually a con.) If this is done with a step out and back to 'outside', the forward arm pushing and rolling the opponent's arm over while the rear hand leads and begins to pull the opponent's arm downwards, it becomes relatively easy to break or dislocate the arm if you perform it vigorously and with a 'snapping' motion. (Mmmm let's just imagine how that would sound ) Tricky one this. Basically ward off can be used aggressively or defensively. My overall view of Tjq is that it is primarily 'defensive' and works best that way, but you can certainly attack with peng energy (see the 'Yang's' bit in a minute). Rollback is generally defensive in nature unless you develop it into 'pull' which can be used as an attack (but then it isn't 'roll back' anymore then lol) I think I've done that alraedy, but any questions... bring em on! Okay here's where I may upset some folks. In modern tjq, as most people do it "Yes". And 'in general' "yes". HOWEVER as I am sure you know ALL tjq derives from the 'thirteen postures' the first eight of which are the jins (energies) of: ward off, rollback, squeeze, press (push), elbow, shoulder, split and pull (I can never remember the second four's Chinese names so apologies for rendering them in English!!) For some reason the Yang family decided to name specific external movements after the jins which leads you to believe they are the same thing when they are not. (I have a theory about this - but it is only a theory based on speculation so I won't go into it at this point) Peng, Lu, ji and an can actually be applied in all sorts of different ways and in many tjq moves you might not expect. However in formal 'push hands' they are specifically isolated for learning purposes. My view is that 'Cheng fu' tjq is geared for push hands much more than it is for actual fighting and this leads to much of the confusion. There are also translation issues which influence perceptions of what the moves are 'for' (and even the idea that the moves are 'for' something in particular as opposed to something else is open to question...) You have to go way back to find 'the truth' and you will probably swiftly realise there are many 'truths' out there lol (Even if you can get 'indoors' of a lineage you will only get what has survived and been handed down - which may be severely limited by all sorts of factors! ) Nothing personal of course, but if you want to lend me your arm I could do that if you like (I do notice now that you said someone else's arm tho lol) - anyways, as long as you promise not to sue me after... lol I learnt the method from Alex Kozma (and Mr Middleway - who posts here at times and will I am sure be taking an interest in this thread) - it involves rolling the opponent's arm in two different directions while simultaneously turning the dantien and shifting your weight back and slightly downwards (see above). Okay, I'll be in my bunker rolling back crab's legs lol :Angel:
Yeah, we have 'Grasping the Birds Tail', which I believe, although don't quote me on this, is just like the Yang 'Grasping the Sparrows Tail'. I think I get the bits you are meaning. I believe the definitions of the powers are what seperates us! The eight powers I know of are: Peng - Upward directed force, usually circular Lu - Sideways diversion Ji - A forward directed push/strike An - Downwards directed force Cai - Uprooting, means to pluck, so think of hip throws Lie - Spiralling force. I use this alot in push hands, or try to! Wrap their right arm round the left side of the head, for example. Zhou - Use of forearm or elbow. Kao - Shoulder or body strike. Good ol' Rugby tackle! If I am understand correctly, I believe our push is your press, and visa versa. We don't really name combinations or single powers as you would techniques. Such as 'Grasping Birds Tail' utilises the powers of Peng, Lu, Ji and An, but thats it, we don't name the combination of powers and such. So when people say "I used Peng energy" to me they are saying they used an upwards force, such as catching a kick and driving it up in cross hands to send them on their **** (unless they are really supple and flexible!!) I have a feeling that Peng can mean so much more to other styles there. I should perhaps get myself to a Yang class to ask some questions and some visual demonstration too! Would love to hear from other people on their take and definition of the 8 powers/jings/whatever you like to call them. Is the five elements the same throughout styles? Does everyone know them as: Earth - Center Wood - Backwards Metal - Forwards Water - Left Fire - Right Metal giving birth to Water, Water giving birth to Wood, Wood giving birth to Fire, Fire giving birth to Earth, and Earth giving birth to Metal?
Not necessarily, I think upwards and inwards initially as I think of the technique at the very begining of the form (Wudang form anyway). Someone coming to to choke you, you raise and intercept his hands with the back of yours, brining his arms up and semi circle down to pull him down. Then you can push him away or hit him when he is off balance.
Brido, thanks for writing the info about the powers, I didn't actually know the lot of them lol, naughty isn't it. When your in a class you just accept what is said and you never really understand what they mean until you see it written down lol. I do listen when I'm being told about pang but I'm still lost on a few of the area's which you are supposed to use in taiji. I normally just get on with doing the form and hope for the best lol. I know one thing though I'll be asking a few more questions about this area and hope I can pick a few brains on here. lisa xx
See, I'd call that plucking then pressing. In the example of cross hands you gave, not only are you lifting up their leg (and hopefully standing on their other foot) but your trying to drive their shin into their head. The same sort of directed force is used in brush knee and twist, the first half of 'as if closing the door', the start of many of the punches and generally all over the place. Besides, peng is generally translated as 'ward off' not lift up. This is why we should use english rather than chinese phrases, at least then we'd know what we were taking about, even if we don't understand it.
Hey Lisa What I would recommend is repeatedly practice the Grasping Sparrows Tail sequence again and again (the Peng Lu Ji An series), focusing on the energy in each movement (both to left and right! ) The later move onto the second of the 8 primary hand energies; Lie - Split (Diagonal flying) Cai - Taking (Playing the Lute) Zhou - Elbowing (Move-Intercept-Punch) Kao - Leaning/Shoulder (White Crane cools wings) The locations I mention above are just obvious ones that jump out in the form. They can really be found anywhere you look for them!
TeJitsuDo, I know your fave move is the parrot , but please don't you start on me, I have enough repeating other moves, don't give him any ideas or he might get me doing them on wed lol. You know it's a weekness of mine and I'm really trying hard to learn how to use the energy in the right way, I just have problems putting it into action lol. lisa xx
Starting?? :yeleyes: This is just the warmup!!! :yeleyes: LMAO!! EDIT: And did you know, the parrot can be a sideways-on Peng (warding off) technique?? Lol PARROT FU!!! EDIT EDIT: As well as an ebow (zhou), a shoulder (Kao), a press (Ji), a split (lie) and maybe any other energy you can think of!
If only I could get away with giving you a very good answer but it's a family forum lol, I'll have to save the answer for wed lol. :woo: I just hope you have to do double than what I do lol. lisa xx
(might make you hate me!! consider this due warning!) Maybe this is why your having trouble with it? Your treating it all like some kind of punishment? Enjoy the endless repition, and know that you'll be better at the end. Your not being put through it for sadistic pleasure! (well, maybe a lil )
Brido and all - Ji is commonly taught as an outwards pushing action, which it can be used for, but imagine the outer arm (facing in) as yin, receptive, then a part of your opponent (limb, neck, head or torso etc) in between, then your inside arm as yang, pushing/squeeezing with power triangulated through shoulders... OUCH! Internal damage? I should coco Much more fun lol (careful how you practice that one btw, tis well dangerous... ) (great thread so far, folks!) :Angel:
Ok Taiji, I've had a go and you may need to show me on wed ( I must be mad lol) as I can't see any difference in the move unless I'm doing it wrong, yet again lol. lisa xx
I don't see it as punishment as it's the only way to learn to do it properly, remember how you used to do kata over and over again until you got it right well this is very much the same. I'm just determined to get it right, eventually . Your ok, you live here and I've got to wait until I move down until I really improve lol. I have to rely on what I've been taught and practice when I'm at home with the help of the video and try and learn that way. I know it's better than nothing and I'm grateful but until I move down I'll just have to put up with it and then I'll show you who's improved lol. lisa xx
So what use are the 8 powers? Given that most movements are a combination of them and a bit more, what do you get from describing them in terms of the 8?
The techniques are nothing but structurally soound ideas really, utulising the eight powers and the five elements. You hear people, like me, saying that there is no technique. It's true really, the techniques are of little consequence when you want to get down to it, its the powers and how you utilise then that matter. Is that what you were asking?
IMO It is a method of practicing peng and lu. It may also be a statement to increase the readers awareness of the arm and it's continuing movement through the form, always protecting your center. In practice never let your arm drop too low (too low? If it is not capable of defending/attacking it's too low). This is one of many errors in my own form, which is probably why I think about it this way. Also the peng arm should adhere softly to your opponent wether on his arm or on his center depends on the opponent OK, now for my take on rollback. Your arm can be any where from the opponents wrist all the way to his neck. If it's on his elbow you surely can break his arm using a horizontal movement (your hand stays in line w/ your body, waist turn and SNAP). If you have a hand on his shoulder and another on his wrist pulling, if he chooses not to follow you and moves down bring his wrist up while following the downward motion with the other side of your body, twist and: possible dislocation. note: I'm only a student have only been practicing 3yrs so this may not be realistic, and is only the way I interpret the text w/ my limited experience and expansive imagination.
