I'm interested in limb destruction and closing the distance into clinch. I do BJJ, but have noticed my stand up deteriorating. Would escrima be a good choice for me to augment my grapplin'? I want something tight and combat tested that isn't sports oriented (I get too much of that already in BJJ). I don't believe in high kicks (not for me anyway). Is kali/escrima practical for my specific needs? I want something I can pick up quick, not looking for a big arty years in dedication thing--I want plug and play, stripped down, you know? Thanks...
your not going to pick up kali/escrima all that quickly besides, anything that you can pick up to quickly is'nt/ or probably is'nt going to be very effective
Sorry, I need to qualify... I just don't want to spend time on intricate drills with little real-life application. What little experience I have in FMA is mainly from Paul Vunak. He has a pretty stripped down version of escrima and limb destructions, but the only Vunak instructor in Melbourne is quite expensive. Hock Hockheim mentioned something about getting really good at escrima drills, but how that doesn't help much in a real fight, that that is a crucial difference. So I guess I'm looking for an aggressive style of FMA that is more combat oriented than cultural preservation. Sorry if I'm coming off too curt.
there's an old group called Bakbakan international (these are filipino martial artist but i don't know if they call themselves under fma) which actually covered a lot of no-nonsense stand-up that i think you will enjoy doing; non-traditional, anything goes, somewhat similar to krav maga. Another group which used to be based in the Hawaii area is called "kajukembo - karate, judo, kempo, and boxing" involving very short, quick techniques, multiple combinations. i don't know if both groups are in Melbourne.
I am not well educated in the FMA styles there in the US that teach emptyhands limb destruction, but I personally think that this is not what you should be gunning for. At least in my group, limb destructions is just an afterthought that is slipped in during or after trapping the opponent's arm. If anything, I believe that FMA training will lend itself well for safely closing the distance to the clinch. As we fight with weapons, a lot of our training involves avoiding the weapon that the other person has, and either disengaging right after a counter or going in to trap the opponent's limb/s. This is a rather practical approach in my opinion, though this may not necessarily be the quickest for picking up skills to be applied strictly for emptyhands versus emptyhands. So yes, as with what Diego_Vega has said, for a direct path towards good stand up striking skills, boxing or Muay would be good.
I'm tending to agree--to be honest, all that trapping and destruction stuff just looks so sweet! I wanted to try to incorporate it. But I loved boxing the short time I did it, and will probably lean toward that, add some dirty Hatmaker stuff. Oh well!
While the term 'limb destruction' just sounds so badass (lol) I don't think if such a thing exists that it's going to be picked up or cherry picked out of a given art in such a short time. Really the closest thing I could think of would something by Vunak... but even that hasn't been developed in isolation... he's been involved in many phases of FMA for ages so his 'limb destructions' no doubt come from his understanding of FMA's as whole... not because he said 'right I need to learn their best techniques only'. Like most things... it's an inclusive deal. I'd say stick to boxing or Muay Thai if you're looking for striking... but even then you'd have to invest just as much time to become competent. That you've done some boxing before will be a big help. But really even boxing and Muay Thai to become competent take a long comittment. Without the dedication and comittment (which you yourself have stated you don't want to invest) you're going to be nothing more than a hobby boxer. While that might impress the average non-boxing lad... someone who's devoted time to it will eat you alive. The same with Muay Thai. When you start speaking of limb destructions... I think you might be surprised what you find in it if you spent enough time there and found the right sort of teacher. These days far too much Muay Thai is a 1-2 punch and a roundhouse... and maybe the odd knee. The reality of Muay Thai is far different.
If you want real no-nonsense, street applicable stand-up fighting go to Canada and learn hockey fighting. They've turned the art of attached striking into a science.
Vunak's system is, in his words, 20 years of MA experience condensed down to the absolute essentials. He does indeed cherry pick from wing chung, jkd, kali, tai chi, and BJJ. He's not a master of all of those styles, yet uses them effectively. He puts his own spin on these different factors, and has created a cohesive whole that can be studied independently. I think you can incorporate limb destructions into your stand up without having to have a base in classic kali. You can just isolate that technique, because it's pretty basic and is in kung fu, ninjutsu, and fencing.
You don't get it. He's been involved in many aspects of FMA for 20 years. That's hardly cherry picking. You want to achieve the same with very little time or dedication as you've clearly stated. Good luck. Let us know how it works out. I'd say there are... when someone has thrown a roundhouse... and you've caught it... all very common... and you come down with an elbow strike to the top of their thigh.... seems pretty destructive to me. Repeated roundhouse kicks up high to their guard until it begins to creep down are in essence limb destruction. Small pecking knee's to their thigh in the clinch... designed to slow them down and render their legs useless are in essence limb destructions... I'm sure there are more but that's off the top of my head. and besides... I wouldn't want to drag this thread off topic with MT. But I'm sure if you post the same question in the MT forum you'll get a few answers.
You might be right, but what I'm telling you is that Vunak makes claims that go against what you're saying. He says point blank that he has distilled the various arts down and make them workable without all the extra art and dead-ends of traditional training. Is that superficial? One dimensional? Probably. Can he do what he claims? I think so. My brother in law did the RAT for five years (I don't know how long it took him to get proficient at destructions). What these JKD people do is strip down and get to the nitty gritty. With destructions, they mainly pop the elbow out at crosses and jabs, and vs roundhouse kicks, rake the shin with an elbow. Not really difficult with some good training... No, cool you mentioned that; I didn't realize they did that so much in Muy Thai. I think your'e basically right about all of this--if you really want to get good at destructions, you need a strong base in the mother art. I have found that my destructions are a little superficial because of this. I used to actually pull them off all the time in TKD vs roundhouses. I'd just raise the point of my elbow and point it at the incoming foot/shin. They never knew what hit them, but boy, that smarts.
You already mentioned Mark Hatmaker. From what little I've seen of his material, he's already incorporating some FMA material into his MMA structure. But my exposure to his methodology is limited to flipping through a couple of books. You might also want to have a look at the Dog Brothers DVD "Kali Tudo" as it's specifically geared toward your needs. Whether it delivers, I don't know. But it is on target in any event. I'd also agree with Slipthejab about the muay thai. I've long thought that the two (muay thai and FMA) are a good match in that they share similar concepts. Attacking into the opponent's attack, for instance. In FMA, that might mean leaning backward to avoid a stick swing to the head, simultaneously hitting the offender's hand with your stick. In muay thai, it might mean kicking the opponent's supporting leg as he tries to kick your head or body (cut kicking). That's just one example though. There are many others. I'm not going to discourage you from looking into this. I do understand people's reaction about you wanting to glean benefit from a very cursory study of FMA. (And you're handling that very admirably, by the way.) At the same time, I'm all for some earnest experimentation. So check out the clips of kali tudo on the Dog Brothers' site for starters. See if that gets the gears turning. Stuart
IF you're looking for TECHNIQUES without the the full package that goes with it, i say stick with muay thai. because fma's tools are shaped by the mentality that is fostered over time. it is fostered over fighting with weapons. fearing them and controlling that fear. it is built over having to react to things faster than a human can throw a punch or kick (i.e. a fast moving stick/ knife/ bolo/ etc.). the empty hands aspect is built on these building blocks. stick with muay thai. it's empty hands based for empty hands fighting (i differentiate this over krebbikrabong or linglom). muay thai and boxing.
Nice post, but I've never done muy thai. My striking is more a smattering of western boxing, JKD, and Ninjutsu.
Yeah, especially the boxing. I really miss it. Only so many days in a week... You know, I worked for 6 months in private classes twice a week with a former Bronze medalist boxer. I'm thinking of just setting up a heavy bag and doing some drills on my own that he taught me, just working the bag.
