want a broadsword - any recommendations?

Discussion in 'Kung Fu' started by NUKKY, Aug 25, 2009.

  1. Jamez

    Jamez New Member

    Understood. I guess from handling so many wushu-esque swords im just use to the lighter ones. Where did you get the designs for the furniture on the sword? I guess that will be my next battle. Then finally the actual balance. But Ill take it one step at a time..
    Came across a little more on the LongQuan swords.
    https://www.americanbladespro.com/blogs/news/longquan-legacy-shen-guang-long
     
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  2. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Well-Known Member

    Some interesting things on that website, could be some good options.

    My designs are my own, I just had a concept for how I felt they ought to go together, and figured out a way to make it happen. Originally I was doing all the metal work in cast bronze, but that is time-consuming and difficult to fix errors. Lately I figured out that I could simply shape steel bar stock, it is quicker and less complicated than bronze casting, but the designs are simpler. Honestly, I am not interested in following a specific, historical designs. I just want to make a solid, useful item.

    I use simple power tools, I am not a skilled machinist and don’t have a precision set of equipment. Hacksaw, hand held power drill, router with steel cutting bits, files and needle files, belt grinder for stock removal and overall shaping, sandpaper and lots of elbow grease.
     
  3. Jamez

    Jamez New Member

    I dont have a Lathe yet but I see it in my future.. Not anytime soon though. My shop is mainly a wood shop but have many tools to do metal. Im really interested in the furniture as I think this will be the most time consuming. I will keep you posted.
     
  4. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Well-Known Member

    Definitely keep me posted. I don’t think a lathe would be useful for this, nothing is actually round. The grip should have an oval cross-section. The pommel should match with the grip and flair out toward the end so that you have something to grab if the sword slips from your grip. I do all shaping of the steel and wood on the belt grinder, but Im doing it by hand l, I don’t have any templates or guides. I just keep at it until it feels right to me.

    In terms of the mass of things, for a lighter blade I am using 1/4 inch bar stock for the guard, and a round stock for the pommel. For a heavier sword I might use 3/8 inch bar for the guard. Care must be taken with the pommel so it is not too massive. I read that over 8 ounces can cause the sword to have harmonic vibrations if it impacts something, and can lead to breaking at the tang. So I try to keep it around 6 1/2 or 7 ounces for a heavier sword. But if the sword is on the lighter side, I keep that down to maybe 4-5 ounces. It’s a judgement call. So there are limits on how much weight to put on it.

    drilling out the grip to fit the tang can be tricky. Do it on your rectangle grip blank before you shape it, so you have some room for error. I drill gradually from both ends until I meet in the middle. Then use hand files to gradually widen it until it fits. It is slow work and can be frustrating. A tang for a dao often is slightly curved, which makes it more challenging. You want as tight a fit as possible. If you just drill it out completely, it will be loose and could even spin. I suppose if you fill in the space with epoxy that could solve it, but I think going for the tight fit is a better way, and then gives you plenty of material to shape the grip without opening it up accidentally.

    And be damn careful to keep the steel dust away from your eyes. Once you get working, keep your hands away from your eyes, don’t rub them for anything. Safety goggles and a face shield doubled up is what I use when grinding the steel to shape it. Wash your hands and then shower before you touch your eyes. Could have dust in your hair that gets brushed into eyes.
     
  5. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Well-Known Member

    I took a look at this website and found where it says these Chinese swords are for display only and not meant to be used for cutting practice or martial arts training. It could be that they are fine and that is simply a disclaimer to try to divert liability if someone abuses one of them and injures themselves or others, including through breaking the sword. It also could be they really mean it, that they know these will not hold up to actual training use.
     
  6. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Well-Known Member

    I suggest you consider something like this:

    TDS010 -Traditional Broadsword with Black Scabbard -漆木单刀

    It has the simplest hilt, which is intended to be discarded, so don’t pay extra for any kind of fancy wood (they have a pear wood hilt for an extra $40 or so). Get on the phone with them and see if they are willing to tell you how thick the spine is at the guard. I would suggest 1/4 inch at the absolute maximum. That is a heavy blade like a cleaver and you will need to work hard to be able to use it. Really, I consider that too thick. Somewhat less than that would be better, the end result will be much quicker and easier to wield. But this is worth considering.

    also: tell them you were recommended to them by a student of Sifu Bryant Fong in San Francisco. You might get an extra deal on it. I don’t know them, but Bryant does. I was his student for over a decade, until he took me to meet my Sigung and I became his direct student.
     
  7. Jamez

    Jamez New Member

    Thank you So much. Im going to jump on this. I will keep you posted..!!
     
  8. Jamez

    Jamez New Member

    This should be good to start with? Also, how do I come up with designs for the furniture? Can you elaborate how you made your pieces?
     

    Attached Files:

  9. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Well-Known Member

    It might be. I can’t give you actual advice without being able to see it and hold it in person. I have no knowledge of the quality of the steel and the workmanship that went into it so I can’t say for sure. You will need to make a judgement call on that yourself, if it is worth working on. So, user assumes all responsibility for injury, and all that.

    I figured out my design by taking apart some swords and looking at the shape of the components and how they went together. I then thought about how I might make something similar, out of better materials and perhaps with some modifications to make it all fit together better. I wasn’t concerned with perfect duplication of the original design. Rather, I just wanted something solid and functional, and with a bit of luck, better looking. Unfortunately I don’t have a manual that I can pass off to you. A lot of it was intuition and some experimentation and failures.
     
  10. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Well-Known Member

    Basically, I cut a piece from bar stock, roughly the size I want the final guard to be. I drill a hole through it where I want the tang to feed through, and then used a router with steel-cutting bits, and needle files, to shape the hole to fit the tang where it meets the shoulders of the blade. Make the fit as close as possible. Then I used a belt grinder to shape the guard into an oval. Use very rough grit for stock removal, and then finer grit to take out the heaviest scarring. Then I use sandpaper and hand-sanding to polish it to a near mirror finish. I use about 24 grit on the machine for shaping, then like 80 and 180 grit on the machine for rough polishing. By hand, I start with 100 grit and work all the way down to 2500 grit. It takes a couple hours for the hand sanding, and your hands will feel it for a couple days. I do the hand sanding at the end, after all components are made, incase something needs to be adjusted or corrected later.

    For the grip, I start with a rectangle blank and begin drilling from both ends with the power drill, meeting in the middle. I widen the hole a bit, until it matches the thickness of the tang. Then I use rasp files and needle files to slowly open up the hole to fit the tang in its entirety. It is slow work, you want as tight a fit as possible, you need narrow and thin files. You need to be able to reach into the hole with the files, to remove material inside, that you cannot see. You are working by feel. Check the fit on the tang frequently. When it finally fits all the way, make sure it meets flush and clean under the guard. Then, mark an oval shape on each end of the grip blank, roughly the size you think you want it. That is your size and shape guide to follow. Use the belt grinder to shape the grip. It should have an oval-ish cross-section. Ultimately, polish with sandpaper to 600 grit, and finish with some kind of finisher. I like linseed oil, on a wood like maple it can be quite pretty.

    for the pommel, decide how big you want it, and cut a slice off round stock, wider than you intend the final piece to be. I use a hacksaw, and slice from round stock about 1 1/4 inch in diameter. Keep track of the weight as you shape it. A heavy blade shouldn’t have more than eight ounces or it can create harmonic vibrations that can break the blade, according to one source. If the blade is lighter or the tang is a bit thin, go lighter on the pommel. For a heavy blade, I try for about 6-7 ounces, for a lighter blade I go for about 4-5 ounces. Drill a hole through your slice to fit the end of the tang, leaving some of the end threading sticking out the back. Make it fit flush and clean to the back of the grip. Shape the pommel on the belt grinder, and Polish, same as the guard. Make the pommel match a clean fit with the back of the grip, and flair out a bit toward the end. If you lose your grip while using the sword, it gives you something to grab.

    fix the hilt in place with a hex nut on the back. I also cover the entire tang with JB Weld, a heavy grade epoxy, to ensure it doesn’t come apart. Most of these Chinese imports are held together with a hex nut on the end.

    this is a basic and functional setup. There are ways to add a hidden hex nut at the back of the grip, under the pommel, you need to cut a space for the hex nut on the underside of the pommel. I use the router to do that. You can also make the final hex nut flush with the pommel, cut out a space for it in the back of the pommel, use a coupling nut (extra long) then after all is put together, cut off the rest of the coupling nut and the bit of threaded tang that is sticking out of the back, and file smooth and re-polish.

    that’s it, in a nutshell.
     
  11. Jamez

    Jamez New Member

    Being I have a wood shop in my garage I have all the tools you specified and more. Ill run out today to get some round stock and try my hand at it (1 1/4 size) and some flat stock for the for the hilt. The pommel itself is what im thinking will give me the most trouble. I will use my drill press to drill out where the pommel meets the handle and polish on the grinder like you said to do. I have a crate of files and rasps including rat tail files which will work perfectly for the handle. Is the handle something where I would use a hard soft wood? I know in some other arts they use the harder soft wood so it can take the impact? Impact grade woods like Appalachian Hickory(99.999% dense). I used it on the shaft to my Guandao when I build mine. I wonder how many pieces I will end up throwing out b4 I make a decent one.
     
  12. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Well-Known Member

    Ive never used hickory for a handle like this, but I’ve made staffs and spear shafts with it, although I don’t know what specific species. I shaped those on the belt grinder as well, and it made a stringy kind of sawdust, rather than actual dust. Seems to be much more fibery. I don’t know if that would be difficult to work with in the tight filing confines inside the hole. Ive been using maple for my grips. I think it’s pretty durable and can be very attractive. If you cover the tang in JB Weld and fill in any gaps, perhaps that adds strength to the actual grip as well.

    Ive read about another method for drilling the hole. You drill a pilot hole first, then heat the tang to red-hot with a torch and gradually push it up into the hole. The hole gets burned out and fits the tang like a glove. Ive never tried it because I think you need to do it before putting the final tempering on the blade, or else you will ruin that temper. Also, I would need to invest in a more serious torch. I’ll re-check my source. But I am not in a position to re-temper the blade.

    otherwise, you could just drill out a wide hole so the whole tang just slides up, and count on filling it all in with JB Weld and the pressure of the hex nut to hold it in place and not let it spin. I don’t like that idea, I think a tight fit is better because when you are shaping it, you might accidentally open it up if the hole is so wide.

    Keep in mind the tang on a dao is usually slightly curved, so that increases the challenge a bit. If you figure out a faster way to drill it out while keeping a close fit, let me know.
     
  13. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Well-Known Member

    Better make that round rod at least 1 1/2 inch. It needs to be wide enough so it meets your needs at the widest flaired part at the end, and you taper it down to meet the grip. I bought bar stock from Lowe’s, but had to get round rod online, didn’t find a place close to me that had it. Just use a low-carbon structural steel. It is incredibly tough and durable and there is no need to temper it.

    And if you are not accustomed to working with steel, I cannot emphasize enough to be careful about protecting your eyes. If you get the dust in your eyes, it will not flush out on its own and you need the eye doc to get it out. You can get bad infections.
     
  14. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Well-Known Member

    Don’t plan your new pommel based on the size of the original. It will obviously be much smaller, as the solid steel is much denser than the hollow sheet metal that the original pommel is made from. So keep in mind those kinds of size adjustments.
     
  15. Jamez

    Jamez New Member

    Yes Ive worked with steel b4 and have very good eye protection. Learned the hard way.. Im using an adjustable speed drill press and wax the tip of the drill bit and run it slowly or you will burn out your bit. Also have a grinder and belt grinder to work with. If you have a grinding wheel they sell some cloth spinning wheels for final buffing . As for the torch, if you are talking about handheld you can look at a map gas torch. They burn hotter than the normal torches. after that you can look into Oxy-Acetylene torch.
     
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  16. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Well-Known Member

    Yes, buffing wheels with polishing compounds could be an alternative to all the hand sanding that I do. After shaping on the belt grinder, it will have all kinds of little flat planes on the surface, everywhere the belt ran over it. I find that the hand sanding smooths those over and softens the feel in the hand, along with simply polishing it.
     
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  17. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Well-Known Member

    Ive got a map gas torch but don’t want to invest in oxy-acetylene, I don’t want that in the garage. It is possible that the heating method does not damage the temper, as the heat may not transfer up into the actual blade enough. Steel does not absorb heat as quickly as other metals like silver. I think sometimes a sword is made with the tang softer than the blade. So that could be a possibility, but I am definitely not an expert on that. I’ll check my source again.
     
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  18. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Well-Known Member

    Here are some photos of a recent project. Comparisons of the original pieces with my new replacements. You can see on the face of the guard, I also took the router and cut partway in so that the shoulders of the blade slot into it. I think that may make it more durable rather than have the shoulders simply rest on the face of the guard. I try to slot things together wherever possible. I also file a groove around the back edge of the grip and router out a space on the pommel so the pommel caps onto the grip. All that interlocking prevents pieces from spinning. Again, JB Weld on everything and a tight hex nut.
     

    Attached Files:

  19. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Well-Known Member

    More photos showing intermediate steps and closeups.
     

    Attached Files:

  20. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Well-Known Member

    You can see the finished item and how the pommel flares. Finished with a hex nut on back. I also cut the blade down slightly, that isn’t difficult to do.
     

    Attached Files:

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