w/c would u choose-tapado or baston?

Aha! I knew Nico wouldn't rest at night once he's back there. It figures though. I'd do the same.

Onto the topic at hand.

Neither do I want to turn this into a circus. But you very well know that this is a public forum & a good amount of people read it. And of course only stick_dog would finally decide on it. There really is no need to ask his opinion (or approval) after our exchanges. BTW, good decision/options, stick_dog. I think the tantalizing eyes would work . I've used that before - hehe. Call me Ferdie, btw.

I did read your whole post, w/c is why I also posted that I never had any problems w/ cops w/ my swiss knife. Just a point of question there as far as validity.

On the contrary, if you'd re-read my posts, I've quoted all of your posts that I've used & did not pick only certain phrases - w/ the exception of those that needed to be reminded of you. It is you who tend to jump from one phrase to another & totally disregard the ideas surrounding the phrase you try to disprove or rebuttle. Take my "double-standard" statement. It was about how the law is fair & that whether you use a knife, a pen, a stone, pipe, gun or long stick, the circumstances you've posted applies to all of them. The circumstance you've tried to illustrate does not only apply to knives but to all things used as a weapon in any case. That we should leave that particular argument of "double standard" to lawyers. And yet you stirred your response into me having to brush off legality on our topic (post #36). Simply put, it has nothing to do with the "indefensibility of knives in general". In fact, you haven't answered my question whether a 3" knife is legal to carry. Is it?

Alas, such is the case in any debate or discussion. It ends 99% of the time unresolved between the two parties. No denying that. You're right though, you are missing my point. We are supposed to be discussing your statement that puts all knives in general as indefensible.

Now, going back to my previous paragraph; Is a 3" knife legal to carry in the Philippines? The answer to this should resolve the question of indefensibility of knives.

Okay, now let's not make assumptions on what I do here & let's stick to the topic at hand. You do not know how I conduct my classes so that "if" statement is unfair. As a teacher in the US, I do not advise my students to carry a knife. The repercussions here are too extreme. You might know this as I'm sure you've read the extensive threads on knife laws in the US. The advise to stick_dog was based on my personal experience living in a very rough neighborhood in the Philippines, that is all. I don't know if you've been attacked by a raving addict, but that is a very familiar occurrence in a lot of neighborhoods like that of stick_dog's (based on his description of his situation) & mine. Would I advice friends or family of mine to carry knives in & around my area? 90% of the time I don't have to. They already have them. How about guns? 90% of the time, I still don't have to. Such is the reality in certain areas.

Also, our discussion is not about changing each other's mind. It is about whether the statement you made is totally true or not.

Now you've gotten way off topic. While the moral responsibilities & ramifications or certain actions is important, this is a totally different topic from our discussion of the statement, "Knives are indefensible."

 

Hi guys!!! I'd just like to add some info about carrying weapons here in the philippines. As i was searching for collapsible batons over the net (im thinking of buying one, do you guys know some place/price?)... i came upon this:
As per PRESIDENTIAL DECREES No. 9 October 2, 1972 Section 3 states the following:
3. It is unlawful to carry outside of residence any bladed, pointed or blunt weapon such as "fanknife," "spear," "dagger," "bolo," "balisong," "barong," "kris," or club, except where such articles are being used as necessary tools or implements to earn a livelihood and while being sued in connection therewith; and any person found guilty thereof shall suffer the penalty of imprisonment ranging from five to ten years as a Military Court/Tribunal/Commission may direct.

 

nice burungkol , now it didn't mention the collapsible baton, could we say its ok to bring one? Also the dulo-dulo?

any info given is much appreciated

 

whew

hi guys,

whats interesting to note here is that we cannot put a definite interpretation on how the authorities will see the situation.

i think the "indefensibility" issue is dependent on the circumstance however , in general, pulling out a knife even in self defense is questionable already

at this point, the legality of the length of the blade no longer becomes the issue, a knife is a knife ( no distiction - the law wont be sophisticated by defining class, blade type, or utility) - this is more of a technicality

plus, law enforcers arnt that well educated... which means they dont have sophisticated definitions on the different classes like, utility knife, swiss knife - its still a knife

* there was a news report 3 weeks ago on channel 7 (local) about two guys who took a **** in by a wall in caloocan... local authorities investigated the guys and discovered that 1 of them carried a balisong and the other a type of "swiss" knife. they were arrested for possession of "illegal weapons"...

maybe they looked suspicious or something but knives generally put a person in a bad light or at least make you a target or possible suspect
( nakukursunadahan )

bottomline: law enforcement can be fickle here

 

i guess the baton would fall under the club category.

 

Hello Batong Buhay,
Your post says very simply and clearly what I have been trying to say all the time: "The use of the knife is indefensible in court." Let's meet some day and share a doughnut.

Hello Burungkol,
Your contribution is very valuable to this prodigous discussion. It settles once and for all the idea that : "The use of the knife is indefensible in court." Let's meet one day and have coffee.

Hello Stick Dog,
It should already be crytal clear to you, thanks to the posts of the two gentlemen above, that :"The use of the knife is indefensible in court." Let's all meet someday so you can pay the bill.

I am afraid, though, that what the other guy is implying is quite right. I think I have the brain of a cockroach because I just can't let a simple issue rest just like that. I would like to explain a few more concepts, such as the concept of Force Continuum. This concept is taught to all law enforcers, but very rarely to civilian martial artists. You see, I want you to avoid tragic situations wherein you may knife somebody and get sued.

For example, in 2003, a Filipino Kali student stabbed a bouncer who was trashing his Chinese friend, the son of a notorious gang leader. The bouncer died, and the Filipino's instructor, also a Filipino had to testify in court how the stabbing was done. In court, the Kali instructor showed how a stab-twist technique was used to maximize the damage done. This true incident happened in the US. If this happened in the Philippines, I am sure I could have provided you with more details. :cry:

I guess I have to write the concept of Force Continuum in installments. I really have the brains of a cockroach. Till next time.

 

Yeah, I remember that case. The bouncer told them it was a non-smoking area, they continued to smoke, so he finally tried to drag the guy out. The Filipino guy defends his friend and stabs the bouncer in the groin and severs the femeral artery. Well, he was found guilty of first degree murder and will be spending the best years of his life in prison.

There was another case in Toronto, where a Filipino guy gets into a fight over a parking dispute. According to witnesses, he was able to parry the other guys punch with his left hand while reaching behind him for his folder which he opened in one smooth motion as he stabbed the other guy. Also found guilty.

I guess the problem with carrying a knife is finding yourself in a bad situation and allowing bad judgement to ruin the rest of your life. A knife, like a gun, is just too easy to use to kill someone.

 

BatongBuhay, really good post.

Burungkol, thanks for the stipulation of the law.

Red, the one very significant difference that you should see between your position & BatongBuhay's post is how he stated that the "indefensibility" is dependent on the circumstances. This is what is very important. While it is true that the "use of a knife generally puts you in a bad light" (as well as use of any weapon for that matter), you really can't use it to say, "ergo, knives are indefensible." You see, you are making it absolute when it is not. Again in stick_dog's situation for example (of course he already decided not to carry a knife & I respect that), if he does have a 3" knife w/ him against a bolo-wielding addict & he survives the encounter, what are the chances that the court would side onto the addict?

Another thing I noticed, in the matters of use of weapons, you're not really supposed to be worried about the cops arresting you. They will arrest you, regardless of what you used. Be it a knife, pipe, sputnik, hot gun, licensed gun, etc. Read burungkol's post, even a club (stick, baton, long stick) is illegal. Heck, they'd arrest you if you hurt or killed someone w/o using any weapon. Your concern is whether what you used in an incident, based on the circumstances, will hold in court. Again, bolo-wielding addict against a 3" pocket knife-wielding law-abiding citizen?

Btw, I still didn't get an answer if a 3" knife is legal to carry. Are you trying to avoid this inquiry?

Now, I don't know how, when or why you thought I was implying you had the intelligence of a cockroach. First of all, this is a mature discussion & the use of such implication is unnecessary. Quoting or "re-quoting" thereof of previous statements is but a part of any discussion or debate. I did not imply anything against you personally, so keep to the topic. And if it even matters, I wouldn't waste discussing anything with one who is intellectually or mentally challenged. Spare the boards. Walang pikunan, ika nga. (No getting p**sed off, as they say)

Btw, before you get into Force Continuum, de-escalation, Judicious Use of Lethal Force or whatever it is you want to discuss outside our main argument, let's establish first if a 3" knife is legal to carry. You don't even need to write installments to answer that. It's either a yes or a no.

 

No, it is not. Having said that, that's the best answer I've been able to get after 4 years of asking lawyers, policemen, senior policemen and people at the PNP College. You are not allowed to carry a knife of any length on your person outside of your home. Transporting it in a bag or other container is something else. Nobody was able to quote chapter and verse when it came to legal statutes, and I wasn't about to ask them to look for it. They said the definition of what constitutes a knife may have some flexibility if it was something like a multipurpose tool that had a blade in it. Even something like a swiss army knife is considered illegal. The only exceptions would be if you were in a rural area and needed bladed tools to perform your work.

 

funny, i was told it could swing either way. no law, not illegal.

 

Tea Party

Oh hello, hello Mr. Diego Vega and Monsieur Shootodog,
Kind of you to join us in our tea party. I guess Stick Dog won't have to pay all the food and drinks alone when we finally get together. Thank you very much for your valuable contributions, Mr. Vega. Now, FINALLY, the answer must be very clear: "The knife is INDEFENSIBLE in court."

Hello Stick Dog,
i hope you are still around because without you, this party won't be fun. I would really, really like to hear your opinions too. About that 3" thing (Why are some males fixated with SIZE???). The Presidential Decree that Mr. Burungkol posted establishes that blades are illegal to carry in general. However, it is understood that certain occupations require the use of knives. The 3" limitation is actually a city ordinance passed by the local governments of Metro-Manila, and possibly also in other urban areas to allow shoemakers, utility persons, gardeners, Boy Scouts to transport their tools from their homes to wherever they will legally use their 3" things. Mr. Diego Vega establishes the fact that it is illegal to carry knives, while Mr. Batong Buhay reminds us that we should not rely merely on the law since, as Mr. Shootodog posits, it can go another way (or something to that effect). In short, in the Philippine situation, you are not advised to carry a blade for self-defense. If you insist in carrying a knife, I strongly advise you to buy 7 sets of Boy Scout uniforms, one for each day of the week so that you are properly attired when you carry your knife, 3" or not.

Guys, I want to ask you to look at the following posts and see what is wrong with the picture.

The Kali instructor must have done a good job teaching his student to use the blade efficiently. But don't you think the student should also have been taught WHEN to use the blade in such a manner?

Don't you guys think that it would have been better if the Kali student was told not to carry a knife? What role should the kali instructor have in educating his student in the proper use of the knife?

Hello Ferdie,
I hope you are joining us in this discussion.

 

Atienza Kali members will not be participting in this thread from this post on....


Carl Atienza
Atienza Kali

 

errr... why? did i miss anything?

 

o hi there sir, yup am still here, just musing on the posts . Am still can't pay for the bill though .

Btw, about the size, why do males fixated w/ size, icluding me , not on knife though LOL.

 

Tea Party over so soon?

Hmmm... I guess my buddy Ferdie and I won't have any more mature and intelligent conversations. A pity, it was becoming very charming...

*Ahem* Of course, of course. No hard feelings, buddy Ferdie.

Serves you right for coming late to the party.

 

Actually, I've been following this thread closely. The debates about the use, handling and responsibility in having a blade on you and its "indefensibility" was interesting. But, it seems there will be no more "mature and intelligent conversations" between you and the guys, as so it seems it has to end abruptly for a reason not clear to me, so... what am I gonna read next?

errr... did i really miss something?

 

we can talk about this over a couple of beer if you like :love: :love:
i'm pretty sure there'd be lots of sponsors

 

With friends like this, who needs enemies. Stick_dog, if you want to get ahead in life, not just survive day to day, pick better friends. Don't associate with lazy, useless, addicted people with negative energy, or in your case a potential for homicide. You can't choose family, but you can choose friends. As for choosing particular weapons for particular reasons? I think most situations are too unexpected and too fluid for you to re-arrange your room to have weapons handy. An easier rule of thumb is closest weapon, closest target. First try to defuse the situation, then do whatever you need to do if that fails.

How much training do you need to use a knife? More people, who've never had any training, stab other people than people who've actually had MA training. Tapado and baston need much more training. Most people know just enough to hurt themselves.

Filipinos aren't alone in this matter. When you're in a life and death situation, you're in the moment. My question is how much can you legally do? I mean Sonny Parsons chased those guys out of his house and killed them as they tried to run away. In some countries, they sound say that he was nolonger in danger and thus it wasn't a self-defense situation anymore. My Filipino friends tell me that Filipinos take it for granted that those guys will return, so the family will always in danger unless he gets them first.

 

oh... so i really did miss something... how about over at one of the monthly picnic/gatherings?

 

Hello everyone,
My, my, the tribe has increased! I guess I will have to spend my quality time with you guys. I tell you what, let's form a club. Of course i will be the head. I have this little secret i want to share with you. I am willing to give it out for free.

Nobody knows, until now, that my first stickfighting art was not Filipino or even Asian. My first stickfighting style was the Art of the English Quarterstave (or Quarterstaff). I learned it from the followers of a long deceased English knight, whose Craft not only included the use of the quarterstave but also field-craft, escape & evasion and other manly skills. Those of you who are interested, say "Aye!" Don't worry about time, venue and other details yet. let's first get a head count who wants to join my free club.

Stick Dog, you may be interested in what I offer. You may compare the English quarterstaff with your Tapado. Unlike the tapado stick which comes up only to chest height, the English quarterstaff is as high as the wielder. The tapado stick is held in one end with both hands and is used like a war club. The English quarterstaff is held in the middle with both hands and both ends of the stick are used for striking. There are other differences, but in the end, it will be interesting to note that as far as combat is concerned, there are universal principles.

I don't claim to be an expert in the English quarterstaff but I can promise you we will have lots of fun and laughter when you join my free club.