Very informative discussion about what JKD is and isn't

Well, the few schools I have seen do exactly what Jeet Kune Do is against, teaching one method over another. That's not what Jeet Kune Do is, it is everything. Even hair pulling and biting. I remember someone on the most recent "The Ultimate Fighter" show represented JKD... But was talking smack and putting down other people?

Seriously, if you want to represent JKD, that's cool... But you have to represent it as a whole, not just a fighting style.

Sorry, kind of explained this above. From what I believe and what I have understood through the readings... JKD is not just a fighting style, but a way of life. So if you study only the physical part of it, and not the entire philosophical or spiritual part of it -- Then you have no right to call your self a JKD master, or JKD fighter, etc. This is why I feel a more generic label is more appropriate.

Like Pat Miletich!

 

Because I've read his books... And I am against JKD schools, not studying JKD. JKD is something you have to experience for yourself, not be taught. Even in the "Tao of Jeet Kune Do" he says to be familiar with your weapons before studying this book.

I understand that and sorry if I implied that I thought everyone was doing it. I just feel that when these wide array of schools opened up it was to make money.

 

jkd has a base system, once you have that down, then you can look at other arts to improve what you have. you can just train in karate, ju jitsu and thai and call it it jkd, but also jkd cannot be self taught

 

Precisely, JKD has a defining physical structure and delivery method. You would be able to differentiate a JKD practicioner to say, a MMAist cross training Muay Thai and Silat, even if the JKDer had incorporated those arts into his game.

JKD is sometimes considered to be a MMA or method of cross training, with the "JKD" part of it being a mere philosophical adjunct, this isn't the case. I prefer to think of JKD as cross-absorbtion than regular cross training, i.e. incorporating a technique or fighting methodology, into to an already clearly defined (and complete) base structure e.g. the Bai Jong. If a method doesn't fit the structure, then it's incompatible.

Simply reading the Tao, then cross training a couple of MA's, isn't JKD.

 

Since when did JKD not advocate using one method over another there? From what I remember we always supported the idea of using the concepts from JKD as opposed to not. For that matter I always considered the idea of JKD being substitution. If there's a better way then advocate that as opposed to something less effective.

Maybe I got what you said later all wrong? After ten years of learning and practicing the concepts of JKD along with technique still I would not be qualified to be considered a student? And the reason would be that I don't follow the eastern thinking which Bruce admired so much? Next I expect you to suggest that JKD students adhere to what Bruce thought and his famous book as if that were scripture.

Hopefully there are more JKD students than not who sometimes question the views of Bruce Lee. And have enough free-thinking dare I suggest to actually disagree with some of his writings/thoughts. Never should JKD students become robots and strictly adhere to JKD technique and philosophy entirely as Bruce taught. Because then we are learning just a style.

Far as the generic label goes if a person is not using JKD concepts they are not using/learning JKD simple as that. Nor would Pat Miletich be considered a JKD student without having a background in the art form much less not using the concepts. That's a difference between just mixing a bunch of styles and learning JKD.

 

I'm not a Jeet Kune Do student... And I never said Pat Miletich was a Jeet Kune Do student either. I don't really know why the words are being swished around. I said what I said, just read the post. Don't analyze it and try and make me look like a hypocrite. I said I have studied/read/reread/loved his books. I never said I learned, or taught, or focused on Jeet Kune Do. I'm an MMA fighter with a little traditional martial arts to back it up.

I was just elaborating my opinion, didn't know I was going to be thrown into the fire.

 

BTW. Good to see a renewed intrest with the JKD forum. Things were quiet around here for a while.

 

Again I never said I was a Jeet Kune Do master. And I have read more than the Tao.

 

Dude, that last statement wasn't really directed at you - more me thinking out loud.

But to readdress your original point and apply it to that - I guess I'm saying that JKD is far more than a series of philosophies and soundbites that can be applied to a single, or combination of martial arts.

 

Did I suggest that you were a JKD student? Or that you said Pat Miletich was a JKD student? Nor was I making an effort to "swish around" your post. And I read your post at least twice before commenting and once again before posting this. How did you get the impression that I was suggesting any hypocricy there?

The portion of your reply that I have an issue with is suggesting that anyone doing JKD has to follow the philosophy and spiritual aspects or is not a student of the art form. Learning the concepts and applying them is critical to being a JKD student. Finding the best technique and training methods to develop better fighting skill is essential as well. Taking in eastern thinking is not.

Back to the subject of generic labels for a minute. What Pat Miletich does from what I've seen is MMA. It's because of not having the JKD background and concepts that he would not be considered a JKD student. Whatever beliefs that Pat Militich has makes no difference.

Reading books about JKD has often proved interesting and sometimes even helpfull to my efforts at developing fighting skills. Yet the writings of Bruce are more of a guide than a rule. The concepts apply of course and I think Jun Fan is a great way to learn how the principles are used not to mention pick up some good technique. After that a student needs to find thier own way and has to if they intend upon becoming a true JKD student.

 

Bruce Lee's thoughts on combat (now generally referred to as JKD "philosophy" or "spirituality"), are simply principles and methodologies that can actively applied to combat and/or fighting. Thinking of them as anything more than that (e.g. some sort of God-like, enlightened esoteric Taoist wisdom) is silly.

JKD was designed to enable the practicioner to knock someone out in 10 seconds, not to make them a Bhudda.

 

Never heard of Bruce Lee's thought on combat being refered to philosophy or spirituality before. Maybe the old favorites like concepts or principles. Have to disagree that spiritualism and concepts are the same thing. From my own interpetation of his work Bruce did take eastern thinking as the "enlightened esotoric Taoism wisdom" you mentioned. Those appeared to be his beliefs. Might be wrong there yet have given the subject considerable thought.

There seems to be a huge problem with people mixing thier spiritual beliefs with thier martial arts training. Developing tools is a far better way for any student to use class time. What I personally get from JKD is using the concepts to develop a better way of doing things. Has anyone else noticed that a parallel discussion is going on in another thread?

 

Interesting.

The point I'm trying to make here is about people's ability (or inability) to seperate philosophical musings and actual martial art (or Bruce Lee's philosophical comtemplation from his martial contemplation).

I'm personally inclined to give the whole "spirituality" subject a wide berth. For the record I don't think there's a whole lot of "spirituality" in BL's thoughts on JKD, philosophy - yes, but not much spirituality.

Bruce Lee's thoughts on Taoism or Zen, have no bearing on my practice of JKD. However, if I empty my cup and try to "be like water", expand when my opponent contracts, or observe what "is" with undivided awareness - can I not apply them as principles in the pursuit of the actuality of combat in JKD?

 

the good one are in it to futher spread the ideals not to make money

 

From a relative novice

Ok so I am a newbie, both here on these boards and to the practice of JKD, I have read through this thread and feel compelled to add my two pennies worth.

In the higher echelons of JKD, the 1st generation of instructors like Sifu Inasanto, Poteet et al, all seem to be wanting to declare ownership of JKD and this has made it a political arena rather than a spiritual/philosophical/physical one which was the original intent of Bruce Lee.

Quite simply, only God knows Bruces intent for JKD in the future after his untimely death but it seems to me they all offer lip service to Bruce whilest forgetting the very core of his teachings.

(This is only my newbie opinion, don't flame me, educate me)

I consider this to be as near as being "from the horses mouth" as one such as myself can get.

It is simple language and i think I understand the points behind it.

As a student of Jeet Kune Do I will study under anyone who has more knowledge than myself whether he be a Poteet guy, a Wong guy, a Hartsel guy or even the guy who teaches BJJ at the local church hall.

If my passion for JKD continues then at some point in the future I suspect I will begin to develop my own JKD.

I hope that I will learn less from these people and will instead be learning with these and other people.

In my humble opinion JKD is far more than the art itself, its something deeper than that.

Its a course of learning, not necessarily a way of life as that sounds too all encompassing, it is something I do because I enjoy it, I enjoy the physical, the training. I enjoy the chats before and after and the great depths of discussion it drives me into.

It gives me a chance to meet new people and to learn about people and is a great avenue to explore my obsession with amateur psychology.

Again I offer a quote from the man himself.

 

JKD myths tick me off.

Bruce Lee was not a one dimensional or one art master. He believed that all martial arts had strong and weak points and what he did was use the strong points and added or modified them to fit what he thought was a proper way to unify them to his art JKD. If you look deeply into JKD you will see Jiu Jistu ,Kick Boxing,Karate,KungFu, and basically all other arts in JKD. That is what I feel makes JKD so interesting and such a well rounded art. Bruce was way ahead of his time with his art of JKD that is was mostly dismissed by all other Masters and Senseis as a joke at the time. Until recently JKD was a forgotten discipline by many but I am here to tell you that it is making a come back and a very strong one at that, this pleases me a ton.

As far as Bruce's beleifs go he had a highly spiritual mind and soul. He studied the cultures and beliefs of many nations and people. He believed that all people deserved to have their own belief regardless of what it was. He had a working knowledge and understanding of many beliefs and even used some in his daily life. His book Tao Of Jeet Kune Do touched on his spirtuality but only scratched the surface as far as what the real deal was. Before I ever started to train in the JKD art I made it a priority to touch base with Bruce's spiritual self and understand what he meant when he meant it. I am a better JKD artist because of it. Bruce was Bruce, thats all.

 

You're bordering very closely on a big misconcepton in JKD.

Many people will say that JKD is made up of 28 different martial arts, and kist some of the most obscure ones that they can find. this is absolute bull. JKD is made up of 4 formats:

Punching
Kicking
Grappling
Trapping

Thus we can see that excluding the obvious fencing influence, there are only 4 arts that primarily make up JKD - Boxing, Savate/kickboxing, Judo, and Wing Chun. Tis is the base.

Bruce did academicaly study other arts (in that, I mean he read about them), and he saw some techniques that he liked, so he used tem. But, it is erroneous to say that those arts that he took techniques from make up JKD - they have been primarily dismissed short for a few techniques.

Em

 

Yeah I'm not really feeling you on this either. JKD is about learning how to fight effectively. It's a training format that allows you to build your game. JKD is all about solid training principles. JKD was never forgotten, and it's not seeing a comeback either. There are just more people who are full of **** then there ever were - people acting like they are in a bruce lee movie, people trying to codify JKD, people who think there is only one way to do things. The real JKD guy have been out there for the last 10-20 years doing their thing and keeping their mouth shut, and they all have skill in their hands to show for it.

 

Well said. Use a bite or gouge in JKD and all of a sudden Kino Mutai becomes one of the "core arts".

 

First I agree with the context of your post. Because I keep hearing an ever increasing list of martial arts were ''borrowed" from to develop JKD. Many of the arts were as you stated something Bruce might have only read about or watched demonstations. Maybe the reason in part relates to all the material taught from different styles found in JKD schools now?

Yet I think Bruce at the very least was impressed enough with a number of art forms to spend time learning a little about them from students therof. For years I have been told that both Lee and Parker (Ed) spent a fair ammount of time with Jimmy Woo and the San Soo art influenced both of them. There are well documented sources of Bruce having spent time practicing with the better know Shotokan and Taekwondo instructors of his time. From the latter some of the kicking technique in JKD seems to have developed. The shuffle kick being a good example of this.

There was an interview with the director of Enter the Dragon where it was mentioned that Bruce used a little recently learned Hapkido in the film. And some of the "foul tactics" that Bruce wrote about and illustrated looks much like Wrestling. At the very least it seems there is sufficent evidence to suggest that Bruce had more than a passing intrest with both Kenpo and Taekwondo.

It seems difficult at times to seperate what Bruce knew from significant time with students of different arts as opposed to what he only read. Somewhere I have an interview with Bruce where he clearly demonstrates the knowledge of a form that I have been told is from Praying Mantis. During interviews with his family there was mention of Bruce having learned a little Tai Chi from an uncle at some point.

The idea of 27 arts having a great bearing on JKD does not seem feasable yet I think 4 is not realistic.