Universality within the sword arts ...

often enough for them to need a back up, is the most likely answer to that question. Otherwise why lug the extra weight around?

paul

 

Thanks very much.... I feel like I need to run-off a dozen copies of your post. I wish I had a nickel for every person who ever represented to me that Japanese battlefields were essentially thousands of individuals paired-off in 1:1 duels. Even in modern cinema, the trend is to get away from neat and tidy and to incorporate much of the innate confusion and "grittiness" of what combat is about.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

James,

Very little data on that at all. According to "Katana To Kubi Tori - Sengoku Kassen Isetsu" by Suzuki Masaya (One of the sources that Dr.Friday used in some of his books) very few cases of polearm failure are apparent. Most cases of death on the battlefield were from being run through with lances, being shot with arrows, musket balls and even having craniums crushed with rocks (possibly melee).

So what is your exposure to Japanese swordsmanship Bruce?

 

Perhaps in some Korean traditions the practice of Addressing one's opponent may be a separate Attribute. For me, Addressing an opponent is a function of Interval, Timing, Focus and Speed.

In the immediate sense, "addressing" one's partner is a matter of re-orienting one's body and mind to focus on a select individual. If I am facing South (6 o'clock) and a person approaches at my Northwest (10 o'clock), given sufficient distance, time and speed I can re-orient myself---physically and mentally--- to deal with that attack.

In the longer sense, Addressing is the manner in which one "sets-up" or "orders" the sequence of engagements---much like a pool-player will set-up his shots in a run of balls.

In my post, I am using a "small a" for "addressing", meaning "in the immediate sense". If a person is attacking me to the front and another is slipping-up behind me, I would want to deal with the person behind without breaking contact with the person to my front. Some may wonder why I would ever "let" a person get behind me and I can assure you that "let" has nothing to do with it. Most teachers counsel to keep some barrier to the rear to prevent this from happening and wouldn't it be nice if everything went according to plan, yes?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

None. I have no exposure to Japanese sword apart from discussions I have had with people who practice it.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

Well......I'm sorry.... I didn't mean to offend..... the tone that I get a lot from folks here is that they speak in absolutes. I've experienced that in Weapons and in avariety of places on the forum where MMA comes up. After a while I start doing the same and get challenged for being autocratic or---whats the word?--- "condescending"?

Examining the grilling that the guy over on the "Batto-jutsu" thread got, I would say that its a pretty safe conclusion that JS practitioners here are very proud and protective of what they do. Maybe....just maybe, now....it might do well to consider how such feelings come across in these posts. IMVVHO.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

The conclusion I got from that thread wasn't so much pride in what people did but that there really is a right and a wrong when it comes to teaching japanese sword.
If what you are teaching isn't authentic japanese sword then you have no business saying that you do and trying to maintain a tradition you do not represent.

What I'm gathering from what I know about japanese sword is that absolutes are valid because the heritage and lineage are well known.
What you do can't be koryu-ish or koryu-like.
It's koryu or it's not.

 

Hmmm..... I need to think on that a bit........ from what I have experienced in the MA the use of "absolutes" seems more of a goal to be achieved rather than a practice to be followed. I've been privy to a few discussions where a few individuals have waxed poetic on nuances that were completely lost on anyone else in the discussion. Absent questions of heritage or lineage isn't this "right" and "wrong" stuff more about who wishes to be identified as "most knowledgable" in a certain pecking order? It may not be intended that way, but it sure seems to come across that way. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

I don't think so.
It's like saying you got a degree from Oxford or Cambridge (or Harvard or Yale) when you really got a degree from Croydon polytechnic (Hicksville correspondence university).
Both degrees may be valid for what they are but one is quite clearly not the other.
When it comes to koryu and japanese sword arts heritage and lineage are "it".

 

Yes, agreed. Thats why I mentioned that if a person takes away ("absent") questions of lineage and heritage, the rest of it just seems to come down to who is to be viewed as "most knowledgable" or "the last word" on a topic. Know what I mean?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

So in Korean sword, how do you deal with someone you don't see? And would you say that your solution is a last ditch kind of reaction, and would you say that Korean have much of that?

It is more a disagreeing going on. As other have said, it is not about some group against another group because of the groups nationality. Its about some group seeing crap sword work.

And if you have problems over several places Bruce maybe it is you and not them? At least a reason for looking closer at oneself.

When you get corrected at a point by someone more knowledgeable than you at a subject you should take it with thanks, not sulking it away. Or if you have another view and believe that it is wrong, try to prove it otherwise with reasoning and backing it up with evidence. It is not some ego boasting when you say something that is way of and some correct you.

 

In Korean sword, the thing that enamoured me of their practice was the fundamental nature of what was done. For instance, I have found two "batto-jutsu" like draws in all of the Korean sword I have studied.
Why are there two?
Because they don't need three. Its just that simple.
This also why I don't have any patience for practices like HAE DONG GUMDO where they have to make-up enough material to keep people busy long enough to make their money from them.

At its core, Korean sword has approximately 32 methods of using the sword. Thats why I thought this would be an interesting thread. In my own opinion I don't think that there are huge numbers of acrobatic and artistic techniques. Personnally I think there are a limited number of some pretty utilitarian methods and the rest of it is just material to keep the fundamental practice interesting.

I caught some flack for the Introductory GUEM BEOP Forms I put out on YOU TUBE, but getting back to the theme of this thread, each of those forms has only 7 methods, so what you are seeing when you watch all 4 Introductory Forms is pretty much the entire corpus of traditional Korean sword methods. I came to love Korean Traditonal Sword because, like say, Japanese TOYAMA RYU its pretty much Asian swordsmanship striped down to its essentials. FWIW.

"When you get corrected at a point by someone more knowledgeable than you at a subject you should take it with thanks, not sulking it away. Or if you have another view and believe that it is wrong, try to prove it otherwise with reasoning and backing it up with evidence. It is not some ego boasting when you say something that is way of and some correct you."

I assume that door swings both ways, yes?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

I don't know if this is you fishing and poking to get a reaction that you can build upon. After you have gotten the info that most casualties was caused by arrow wounds, how can you draw the conclusion that the Japanese battlefield was about thousands finding their own and duel to death, and that it was not messy and chaotic at times.

I think that I understand what you are after. You want us to say that the Japanese battlefield was messy and chaotic just like how you view it. And yes it probably was. Now, koryu systems, even the sogo bujutsu that I am familiar with don't have practices where you do formations with spear and organize your training around the idea that you are in a battlefield. It is colored by personal combat in situations that my or my not involve several antagonists. Just like Polar Bear explained the manuals from Europe (?).

Then your argument would be, "well the Korean arts do, so thats why we stick our sword back without looking hoping to god that we kill the sorry ******* that sneaked up behind me, and thats why the Japanese systems don't". I'd agree with bear here, it is odds you cant plan or train for.

 

I think it's probably best to have to look at koryu and think about what their purpose was rather than how Bruce seems to think of them and how they related to battle.

I think that may be the connection in the underlying flaw in Bruce's understanding.

 

That could have been a much more shorter answer and more to the point, but what the heck..... and why write youtube in big letters? Yes it is nitpicking, but damn.

Sure.

 

You really want to hear about something thats "universal"?

Here's something that is truly universal regarding sword.

What I have found truly universal about sword is that proclivity for people to automatically----perhaps even reflexively---read something negative, toxic or nefarious into another's post.

Personal attack removed.

All I have been looking for is a decent conversation and I am real, real sorry if you have to read some sort of nasty motive behind each and everything I write.

Frankly, trying to have a productive discussion with you folks is WAAAAYY more trouble than youre worth.

 

Bruce,

We manage to have decent discussions amongst ourselves, with the WMA guys, Karate folks and any number of others.

However for whatever reasons you continually go off on one at some point in these threads and then blame others. A quick look here shows that and even the MMA thread you mentioned, where most people were pointing out you were incorrect and you still had a hissy.

Now you are either trolling or have some real issues, either way give it a rest as it's getting very tiresome. If it is such a problem here then why not go to Martialtalk or somewhere.

 

Nice work there Bruce!

 

"We manage to have decent discussions amongst ourselves, with the WMA guys, Karate folks and any number of others."

Well.....maybe thats the operative, or qualifying, condition.

Maybe you folks should be left to play with yourselves.....just don't go blind.