Undisciplined sleep patterns and insomnia

Discussion in 'Health and Fitness' started by aaradia, Nov 10, 2013.

  1. aaradia

    aaradia Choy Li Fut and Yang Tai Chi Chuan Student Moderator Supporter

    I have had chronic insomnia my whole life. Sometimes I really can't sleep when I try, even when exhausted.

    But I also know some of it is bad sleep discipline. For example, right now....

    I had an hour sparring class, and I went through my test format. It is an advanced level test (to be a brown sash) a little over an hour long, and a very hard workout. Add to that another hour of TCC, and some light CLF sword form practice.

    I am exhausted. All I can think of is a nap. But if I do, I will be up too late and sleep in. Then, my sleep schedule gets all wonky for the work week. I do this most every Saturday.

    I am trying to work doing what I can to sleep better. I have had a late night body clock since I was a kid.

    Anyone have any thoughts on dealing with insomnia, bad sleep habits and how to break them, or anything related to sleeping better?

    I don't want to resort to sleeping pills. I don't have an addictive personality with drugs or alcohol. But after a lifetime of bad sleep, I fear I could get addicted to it being so easy to take a pill and have no trouble sleeping.

    I really have no idea how to even go about fixing this.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2013
  2. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Well-Known Member Supporter

    I don't have a crap ton to suggest because I have something that works for me (which I'll share) but I often experience the same problems you do.

    What helps me is never taking a nap after 1 pm, and don't do anything stimulating a good 4-5 hours before bed (like sparring, working out is ok). If I get so groggy during the day (after 1pm) that I want to take a nap I hit up some caffeine. If I stick to that and maintain an active lifestyle I never have a hard time sleeping.

    Also, no caffeine a good 3-4 hours before bed.
     
  3. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    We don't prepare for sleep anywhere near enough and it's all down to our modern lifestyle.
    If we were still living in caves we'd go to bed when it was dark and rise when it was light; we'd be part of the circadian rhythm.
    Now though we go to bed when the clock strikes a certain hour and rise when it's time for the early shift at work and our patterns are all over the place.

    It takes 7=21 days to become entrained to a new sleep pattern, so don't expect a good nights sleep on Wednesday just because you went to bed on time on Monday and Tuesday.

    Take a look at the following thread on entrainment and then my thread on sleep.

    http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93777

    http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93727

    Make sure you watch your caffeine intake, especially in the afternoon. Caffeine can have a half life of up to 6 hours, so a coffee at 6pm is still partly in your system at midnight.

    http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96955

    The biggest problem I've found over the years is that peoples minds are still buzzing from the day's activities. Mentally switching off is preventing dropping off to sleep within 10 minutes of hitting the pillow.

    Some basic meditation is the answer and it only takes 5 minutes.

    This is also excellent during waking hours for a little focus.

    I've had some great success teaching this simple method., which was shown to me by a Kung Fu instructor nearly 30 years ago.

    I'd normally prefer to be in the same room as you before I went through this, but here goes. Hopefully I can make it easy to follow.

    Stage 1.

    The reason many of us struggle to get to sleep is because the mind is all over the place, with your thoughts on the days work, tomorrows requirements, that guy who upset you and so on.

    You (we) need to be able to focus the mind. Those who will tell you to empty the mind are already pointing you in the wrong direction.

    What we want you to do is focus the mind and we'll be focusing on our breathing.

    Lie either in bed or on the floor. The room must be quiet and dark.

    Legs straight and place your hands on your belly, with the middle finger on each hand over the belly button.

    I want you to imagine your body is a tube and as you breath in (through the nose) picture the breath (however you want to picture this is fine) coming into the top of the tube and down to the belly.

    Don't force this. It should be a natural and relaxed movement and you'll know when it's right because ever so slightly the middle fingers (which were touching) have now ever so slightly parted.

    Note: Once this is natural you can place your hands by your side.

    Once the fingers part you breathe out and picture the breath dropping down and out of the bottom of the tube (down the belly, into the legs and out through the feet).

    You then repeat.

    This may sound like simple breathing in and out, which it is, but the point is the mind will try to look elsewhere and by focusing on the breathing you can bring the mind back to where you want it.

    You'll need to do this for between 5 and 10 minutes (longer is fine) before you get a decent pattern going and feel both relaxed and able to control the mind.

    This is all I want you to do tonight.

    Tomorrow night.

    If you managed to get a decent breathing pattern and stop the mind from wandering, then go to stage 2. If you found it difficult, then repeat stage 1.

    Stage 2.
    Spend the first 5 minutes getting a decent breathing pattern, slow the heart rate and controlling the active mind.

    Once you have this you can now start the relaxation part of the exercise.

    As you breath out (down and out through the bottom of the tube) I want you to picture the muscles getting heavy and almost melting away from the body.

    Start with the head. be aware of the eyes, ears, nose, mouth etc and on each out breath picture the body part getting heavy and melting away from the body. A bit like that feeling after a big sigh.

    Move slowly down the body, picturing the neck, shoulders, upper and lower arms, hands etc.

    It may take 10 minutes, it may take 30. That's your choice and based on how you relax.

    The mind will try to look elsewhere. Use that focus on the breathing pattern to bring it back. This is the key to this exercise.

    I would normally be in the same room as someone when teaching this exercise, so I hope this written version makes sense. Please do ask if there is something confusing.

    I am genuinely interested in how you do, so please do let us know.

    Good luck and remember the entrainment thread said that it takes 7 - 21 days to become entrained to a new pattern.

    Simon.
     
  4. righty

    righty Valued Member

    I've heard some interesting thing lately concerning that number. Can I ask where you got it from?
     
  5. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.

    I've had sleep issues all my life. However this is based on a lifetime of working since I was young and parents working till late at night.
    Going to bed at midnight was considered early in my family.

    I now work shifts (Days,Lates,Nights) where my (semi) insomnia actually helps. What I do to sleep though is actually watch my caffeine intake, I'll try not to have any or as much at least a few hours before sleep. I'm kind of addicted to mochas :p but I'll try not to have any coffee after 3pm.

    I too find that when I'm exhausted I can't sleep, I tend to go from "I can't move anymore" and then lie in bed and my body goes "I'm OK now! lets get moving"

    There's no magic potion I can refer to, nor any scientific facts to quote. All I can suggest which kind of works for me is get in bed, lights off, phone on silent/vibrate and just lay there.
     
  6. Lad_Gorg

    Lad_Gorg Valued Member

    And any signs of depression? For me the two have always been intimately associated in a feedback loop of sorts. Generally when one is given a chance to clear, than the other will follow.

    Other than that, Simon is always the king of sleep here. I'd just want to point out that you shouldn't follow the rules to "actively", if that makes any sense. I've always played around with similar rules to try and rid my insomnia, but I found that I started to fixate on what I should be doing and my mind was busy again (ergo bad sleep again). It wasn't until I just shut off the active thinking that I was able to sleep like a baby.

    As for meditation. I personally don't "meditate", but I get plenty of "moving meditation" with the gym, work, playing guitar, etc. so my mind is kept fairly focused. Maybe this would be an alternative to what Simon suggests, not that it matters what you do, just offering some alternatives.
     
  7. Bozza Bostik

    Bozza Bostik Antichrist on Button Moon

    I have a lot of problems with sleep. It's a bit better these days but not perfect.

    For me it's not so much about what I do when I go to bed, but what I do in the hours leading up to that...hope that makes sense.

    Not adding anything new here but...

    No naps! I usually have to work when I get home from work (it can take anything from 10 mins to 4 hours), then maybe go to my MA class or for a run, then the usual house stuff you have to get done. I felt like I needed a nap or I'd never get through the evening. For a couple of weeks I stopped the naps and put my training to one side and struggled through the evening. It helped me develop a better routine and I slept better at night.

    I reduced my coffee through the day. I went from about 15 mugs to about 4. I still need to reduce that though. I try not to drink coffee after 6, that's maybe a little too late though for me.

    I usually get home from work, relax for 30 mins then crack on with everything that needs to be done. That way I can have about 2-3 hours before bed where I am doing nothing except reading, watching TV...basically, chillin' stuff. Anything that needs to be done, unless it's super important gets put to one side. If it's my turn to give the dog he's trip out before bed, then we just go for a slow stroll, sniff and poo! (him not me). It's good for him too. I basically try and create a calm and relaxing environment before I go to bed.

    I also try and practice zazen sometime in the hour before bed. It helps me relax.

    My work hours are all over the place but I try and stick to strict times of when I go to bed and when I wake up. Sometimes I might have 90 mins work starting at 11:00, so I'd tell myself it's ok to stay up to 4 reading or something and wake up at 10:00. I try not to do that now.

    As I said...nothing new but...
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2013
  8. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

  9. righty

    righty Valued Member

    Good info there.

    My question was more about the specific timeframe itself. I've done a bit of reading lately about habit etc and it seems that particularly the 21 days thing comes up relatively option. However I stumbled across another resource that finally said there was nothing to support that number and that habits (especially the more complex or non-habitual ones) take longer to instil.
     
  10. SoKKlab

    SoKKlab The Cwtch of Death!

    My sympathies. I too struggle often with sleep.

    I'm getting much better sleep results from following and eating to my (and your) natural rhythms.

    Upon waking you're in a catabolic - breakdown - state. Your body releases a shot of cortisol to cope with the stress of waking. And then a 80 gram shot of Glycogen for energy (hence why a lot of folks don't feel hungry first thing).

    This catabolic state exists til around early-afternoon. Then you go into a more anabolic state - Your body repairs and builds back up.

    What can you take from this?

    In a catabolic state you can handle more carbs (and more pain too so dentist or births in the AM if poss).

    So I eat more of my carbs in the AM. Then I lessen them throughout the day. And I'm not consuming any carbs 4 hours or so before bedtime.

    Gradually throughout the afternoon and pm I eat much more protein and fat and less carbs.

    My last meal of the day is all protein and fat (usually a glass of half full-fat goat's milk and half almond milk with my fish oil and minerals).

    This seems to work quite well. I managed to break my insomniac tendencies. And am sleeping 'better to soundly'.

    The mineral magnesium is quite a relaxant (hence multi-mineral at night with protein and fat meal). Also Lemon Balm is the one herb that manages to help me sleep the best (as tea or capsules).

    Often the martials can cause you to stay awake - Particularly wirey for the nerves - If you're beating yourself up about not being messing something up etc. Too much training to near to bedtime can of course keep you up late.

    Avoid supps like Carnitine, Nox etc.

    In Summary:

    No carbs after say 8pm (for a midnight bed)

    A meal of Protein and Fat before bedtime

    Minerals and Omegas with your last protein meal

    Lemonbalm for extra sleep scuush

    Bonus Points for:

    Radox Thyme Bath Salts Bath

    'A Bit of How's your Father?' :D

    Happy Sleeping
     
  11. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    Have three children. Personally, I CAN'T WAIT to go to sleep. I'm staying home with an 8-year-old, a 5-year-old, and a 6-month-old right now. And I could easily drink a cup of coffee at 7:00pm and be fast asleep by 10pm.

    This suggestion is obviously facetious. I struggled a bit with insomnia when I was depressed. Actually, insomnia isn't the right term. I slept just fine. I just did it from about sunrise to about 1pm. It was all about breaking that cycle. I stay up late watching movies or walking around outside, then I sleep in all morning because 1) I'm tired and 2) I'm not motivated due to the depression. So the cycle continues the next day.

    The simplest (though not necessarily easiest) link in that chain to break is getting up. You said yourself that you stay up too late so you sleep in. Again, having kids, I KNOW I can function on almost no sleep for a horrifying number of days in a row. It's awful. And I'm in a bad mood. But I can do it. That means I can actually get up at the appointed hour, even if I didn't get much sleep. And that's how I stop that cycle from gaining momentum. If you have a late night, get up anyway. That's the discipline part.

    I'd also agree that you need to arrange your schedule more to accomodate a "cool down" period. Arrange your schedule to wind down to sleep. I'm sleep training a baby right now, and I think the same basic logic probably holds for adults. We reason that physical exhaustion will naturally lead to sleep. But it leads to over tiredness. And that often translates into an inability to sleep in infants. Perhaps adults too. I sleep so easily because I'm mentally spent as much as physically. Perhaps there's something you could do to mentally wind down. Journaling maybe. Getting your thoughts on paper might help prevent them from banging around your brain box all night and allow you to relax more.

    Just a thought.
     
  12. Gary

    Gary Vs The Irresistible Farce Supporter

    I'd second this, it's the first thing to do to get back into a reasonable sleeping schedule. A lot of self diagnosed insomniacs actually get a fair bit of sleep but it's with odd hours and short naps rather than the solid 8 hours they want.

    A few years back I knew sleep was my weakest point in my training, the exercise was good, nutrition was great but I knew that sleep wasn't what it should be. I set three alarms on my phone, one to wake up, one to go to bed and one half an hour before I wanted to go to bed. When my first alarm went off at night it was the signal to get away from whatever was keeping me up. For me this was the internet, tv and games consoles. Once they were all off I'd start my routine for bed. Once in bed I'd read fiction, I've seen a few places which suggest it's a good way to activate the parts of your brain which stimulate the imagination and therefore dreaming, rather than non-fiction which tend to activate the areas for planning and preparation and keep you awake thinking about the next day.

    Getting up with your alarm is important too, perhaps more important. Never hit snooze, it's not long enough to gain any extra rest but it will ruin the routine of a regular body clock you're trying to establish.

    Obviously stimulants like caffeine are a no no, as are things like alcohol which may work to help you sleep but will have an effect on your quality of sleep and runs risks of dependency.

    Keeping a sleep log may help too, it gives you some accountability and helps a lot when you're convincing yourself to stay up until the end of the film, level or internet argument!
     
  13. Dan93

    Dan93 Valued Member

    I am a shift worker and do two days followed by two nights on my work pattern provided I am not working cover or OT.

    Lack of sleep/insomnia is the bane of my existance at the moment as I am working nights and could not sleep at all during the day.

    I personally find sleeping at night OK but find my mind is far to active during the day to settle down, I have and do read beforehand to try and settle down.

    I have tried looking at my diet and intake of caffine, exercise, blocked out all light in the bedroom and wear wax earplugs to eliminate outside noise, currently looking into meditation to try and get round it. Normally end up waiting bored to get up in a dark room before a night shift.

    Right time for a coffee....
     

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