UK Law on Self Defence

Discussion in 'Self Defence' started by BradPennick, Nov 22, 2015.

  1. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Heavens forbid that everyone is walking around tooled up ;)
     
  2. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.

    You don't want to be comparing different Laws with different countries (ie UK and US). Unfortunately (this is going to sound a bit old man ish) but due to popular American court room/crime dramas, a lot of UK residents think UK Law is identical to US Law. To the fact that, when arrested they want to hear their "Miranda rights" and even think that calling Police is 911 and 999 is for Fire or Ambulance.
    (some of you may laugh, but its the God honest truth)

    I initially wrote a bit of a rant about SD Law etc but I started getting a bit angry and ranty.

    Essentially, if you do what you think you can do in an SD situ and willing to do it. Just bare in mind that you will have to try and back that up in Court, with a Legal Advisor. Because what you think in your own head is perfectly reasonable, doesn't mean it is in the eyes of others.
     
  3. openminded

    openminded Valued Member

    You would have a hard time justifying the use of a legally held firearm in a self defence situation in the UK. No matter what the risk, the U.K. Is so fun afraid that there is little chance you would walk free.
     
  4. openminded

    openminded Valued Member

    Reasonableness is a subjective & objective test. What do you as the individual honestly believe was reasonable and more importantly, what does a person of reasonable firmness believe was reasonable in those circumstances.

    Any use of force in the UK (outside of the police) is frowned upon, hence why we have such a high violent crime rate. Members of the public are actively discouraged by the police and the courts to not step in and help during a confrontation. If more people did, criminals would think twice about committing crime
     
  5. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.

    I agree, completely situational circumstances are based in individual issues. Hence people asking "can I throw (x technique) and claim SD?"
    The answer is either 'depends' or 'no' (for the extreme bits).

    UK Police follows the exact same (like with any other Law) Use of Force Law. Hence 'common' Law. The only difference obviously is the ASP and Spray (classed as a firearm) and only can be carried whilst in Uniform.
    Which is the same with Sword carrying Sikhs or the blade of a Scotsman. (Or even a Butcher and a Chef).

    So members of the public (us) can intervene in a fight as mentioned previously...
    'Honest held belief/to yourself and others/use of force reasonable and necessary'

    Its the "reasonable" part which is contentious to all. See, everyone discusses knee breaks, chokes, eye pokes etc. When even verbal commands can count, Police have to justify handcuffing, as that is a use of force and even just reaching for the Spray. As its 'a show of force'. But a lot of members of public (bar Military/well trained security) don't know what could be reasonable/necessary use of force to stop a fight. Emotions come in. And suddenly you have something called 'Affray'.

    The TLDR version. You can step in. Be prepared to justify your actions, despite how well intentioned they are by giving a statement. Dont be upset if you get asked to go to Court.
     
  6. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I'm confused by this. Are you saying the UK is afraid of fun because of strict firearm laws? :confused:

    The CPS has a public interest to serve in preventing people using firearms as weapons. I also think it is harder to argue against premeditation when you have to unlock your firearm and ammunition held in separate containers in order to use a firearm in self defence.

    A high violent crime rate compared to where/when?

    I think people tend not to step in because they are afraid of being harmed themselves, not because they are afraid of the legal ramifications.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2016
  7. openminded

    openminded Valued Member

    I agree in part that some people are afraid of being harmed, but many are affraid of ending up on the wrong side of the law. Certainly the one's I speak with.
     
  8. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Haha! Yeah, "gun" makes more sense :D

    I don't know how other European countries record violent crime. In the UK, "violence without injury" is included in the stats, plus you have to factor reporting methods and stringency.

    I would think that countries such as Austria and Switzerland are safer, but I don't know about France or Germany. It's certainly safer in the UK now than it used to be, no matter what the nostalgia brigade will tell you.

    It's interesting you know people who think that way about stepping in though. I've never met anyone who said they thought about legal ramifications before either stepping into a potentially violent situation, or leaving well alone.
     
  9. openminded

    openminded Valued Member

    You raise a very valid point, the recording of crime is a very contentious issue, with some forces directing officers not to arrest for certain offences. Such as one northern force was struggling with the amount of burglaries so directed its officers to record domestic burglaries as theft. One of many example I could cite.

    My understanding is (and I will look for figures this weekend) that the UK has considerably more violent crime than most other European counties.

    Crime isn't so much increasing, but our police are diminished and poorly equipped, so expecting a police response for a large amount of the time is ambitious at best.

    For me self defence would be taught in schools along with other life skills such as first aid. Some say National Service would assist in changing the culture we have in the UK, and to a point I agree compulsory service would instill some much needed morales and discipline into people. But National Service as it once was would only de-professionalise our military.
     
  10. openminded

    openminded Valued Member

  11. Latikos

    Latikos Valued Member

    I learned on a seminar, from a former police officer, that a headlock is considered a potential life-threatening attack and therefore we were free to defend against it accordingly (again: Germany, not the UK).

    I do hope policemen have the same right :eek:
    I haven't watched the video though, I should add! My laptop isn't having its best day.
     
  12. Count Duckula

    Count Duckula Valued Member

    You're taking it to the extreme. I don't say everybody should carry weapons. But classifying common everyday items as offensive weapons just because you've considered their self defense application as a factor is stupid.

    I carry a mini LED light on my keychain. It's a handy little thing, about the size of a AAA battery. Perfectly harmless and if I used it as a weapon of opportunity nothing would be amiss.

    Except I just said out loud that it would be a perfect thing to hold in a fist and use it as a short stick that could be used to inflict a lot of pain on someone being close enough to ram it into.

    and now the same harmless item is suddenly an offensive weapon and if I used it to defend myself, I could conceivably be convicted for using it. That's not a really sensible law imo.
     
  13. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I agree with the sentiment that people who are walking around with an improvised weapon for self defence are not acting for the public good.

    When you have a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.
     
  14. webcrest

    webcrest Valued Member

    The doctrine in English law allows self defense as a part of private defense. According to this law one can act in a way to protect oneself from injury or unjust threat or to prevent crime. The common law and criminal law act 1967 assert self defense as a justification rather than an excuse or crime.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2016
  15. openminded

    openminded Valued Member

  16. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    My cousin was saved from a rapist by a passer by who stopped his car and got out to help.

    I have verbally intervened from a distance when I was I cycling home and encountered a man on the floor and another one standing over him stamping on him.

    On both occasions just a verbal intervention was enough to stop the attack. However when I intervened I did it with the knowledge that I might have to defend my life at any moment. (that is to say I took it very seriously even though it turned out that shouting from a distance was enough to stop the attack).
     

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