UFC Jujitsukas. Dumb Question

Discussion in 'Ju Jitsu' started by Dropbear, Mar 29, 2004.

  1. Hazmatac

    Hazmatac Valued Member

    NO. For most people that's impossible. Look, it's really rather simple. Even *I* can comprehend it. In order to get rid of fear of fighting you must fight. See my rant.

    Just a difference of oppinion then. At least this is locked out as an "agree to disagree" situation.

    I thought you were saying you must know "proper technique" before sparring.

    I probably did, but this post is too long to go back and check. I think the goal of sparring is to make your techniqe better, not to win. Anyways, do you think a beefed-out street fighter could come into your dojo, spar with your main teacher and win?

    Do you not understand the dry land swimming analogy? The resisting opponent is the water. You can build up the physical attributes neccesary for swimming, but you can't improve your "swimming technique" outside of the water!
    If you can't swim, do pushups. Run. Fill up a kiddy pool. Build attribues. But practicing a "swimming kata" is not going to help. You can ask about the correct method of doing strokes, but practicing them in the air won't help you. YOU MUST GET IN THE WATER.

    I can only tell you my opinion as I do not do solo kata myself. Your response makes sense; I get what you mean. Pure fighting skill is not the only reason for everybody doing martial arts though. Honestly though, I really can't tell you exactly why people do solo kata. Does anybody else have any opinions on this?


    Yes. Shotokan, tae kwon do, daito-ryu, several vietnamese traditional styles (vo binh dinh, ho ba chun, 72 elbows, etc.), muay thai and vo tu do (which I still do).

    Since you were in those arts I will assume that you have a reference to what you are talking about in reference to solo kata. How long did you do those kata arts? Oh yeah, what is vo tu do? Is it another way of saying "Vale Tu Do" ?
     
  2. Kwan Jang

    Kwan Jang Valued Member

    -Funny. I find the practice of kata to be of great value on several levels. If it's traditional kata, it makes a great road map of the pressure points and how to set up your next shot. If it's contemporary forms (open or xma divisions), I find it a great way to push my athletic boundaries. In fact, I plan on competeing in this year' NBL SuperGrands for the World title in creative forms in the 35-45 age division. I may do the US Open and Batlle of Atlanta(NASKA/ISKA) too. I find it more of a personal challenge for me to win in forms than other areas.
    -If I win a kickboxing or MMA match, people will just say "there is a big muscle guy overpowering the others". OTOH, if I can win in forms, I get to shock people with how fast and explosive I can be and how good my technique is. If I beat the top level form people, it's not because I outmuscle them, it's because of how good a martial artist I am.
    -I admit there are some MA's who have no real fight experience and use forms as a substitute for contact. There are also instructors who use forms as filler in their cirriculum and they themselves don't really understand the value in it, let alone can teach it to someone else. OTOH, there are martial artists out there who grew up fighting full contact in their mid-to-late teens and have grappled for decades. Some of us even find it very hard to find any training partners who we can play hard with. You get to the point where you can't even hit the pads anywhere near all out and you break heavy bags. Now this can be a good problem to have, but it is a problem none the less. You know you are in trouble when a UFC champion will not play with you because you are too big and strong.(this is not to say invincble by any means, we are all only human, and I know if I made a mistake he could easily take advantage of it.) For these kinds of martial artists, forms does give a great challenge.
     
  3. hedgehogey

    hedgehogey Banned Banned

    No. Although the technique is a leveller, my teacher's years of experience in full contact fighting ensures that he knows much more about fighting than any "street fighter", who hasn't ever fought a skilled opponent.
    BUT a "street fighter" could walk into many a mcdojo and beat up the master. There's a clip of exactly that on bullshido. Look at "TKD vs kick in the nuts".


    Total, about three years.

    Vo Tu Do is the vietnamese equivalent of muay thai. Vo Tu Do is to vietnamese martial arts what sanda/sanshou is to chinese martial arts. Vo Tu Do (Vaw-Tu-Yaw) emphasizes elbows a lot, many more than muay thai, but fewer knees.
     
  4. hedgehogey

    hedgehogey Banned Banned

    I never said forms weren't challenging, I said they don't produce anything useful for fighting.

    Anyone who says that is an idiot, especially if you win with a guard submission.

    That is definetely a problem I wish I had.
     
  5. mild7

    mild7 Valued Member

    hedgehoey, I take my hat off to you for trying to fight the good fight. One thing I've found about the traditional crowd though, is that most just simply don't subscribe to facts/statistics/reasoning.

    The answer to the original question was answered in one of the first few posts. that is, that standing wristlocks, rotational unbalances etc just don't work as well as some ppl would like to imagine they would. Especially in a super heated environment like a real fight is. As a disclaimer here, I do think they are valuable techs to know, as MA skill is not only for fighting, but restraining purposes as well.

    But over the internet, ppl can just blab on and on about theories etc. That's fine. I've been to forums where ppl claim that sport TKD is the most effective street art, and guess what, they can theorise for hours too as to why this is.

    Until the day I can meet a guy who can consistently pull off that fancy trad jj stuff on me in a sparring match, i will maintain my opinion that they are difficult techniques to pull off.
     
  6. mild7

    mild7 Valued Member

    as a further disclaimer, I am not referring to ALL trad MAists.

    As if I should bother. But to be fair I know quite a few very good trad jujitsuka as well. OK? :D They still can't tap me with wristlocks, but I find it invaluable to learn from them. Never know when you may need them to quiet down a drunk.
     
  7. jurg

    jurg New Member

    Traditional Martial arts are art forms. The basics of fighting is boxing and Thai or kick boxing For stand up, and BJJ or wrestling. These are the best because they are alive Martial arts, which mean that they are trained against a resisting opponent and still work! there is no compliance from your partner to make the moves work like the stand up wrist locks you described.

    If you want to do a martial art for the sheer enjoyment or for the Kata I would say its cool!
    But If want to fight or want real self defense don't be fooled by all the Hollywood stuff because it should stay in the movies.Trust me fancy does not work in real life fighting and thats why you don't see that kind of stuff in the UFC its because it doesn't work.

    There is a book called "The History Of Mixed Martial arts" by Clyde Centry in the book they talk allot about the questions you have asked and it would be a good book if you want the TRUTH about Fighting.

    Keep it Real :D
     
  8. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter

    So your partner doesn't work with you and feed you shots when your working drills?

    When learning technique your partner doesn't lend you their limbs so you can see/feel how the lock/choke works.

    Sounds like a compliant partner to me.
     
  9. benkei

    benkei Valued Member

    Hi guys, my first post here. Let me say, kudos to hedgehoney especially but to most of the people in this discussion, good points made and refuted.
    Kata(or drills, whatever the hell you want to call it) have their place. With kata you learn the basic technique, how it works, how to apply it. After that, you must test it, and test it properly, against fully resisting opponents, otherwise it is useless learning it in the first place. I'm in agreement with hedgehoney, certain simple wristlocks are good, others aren't. UFC etc are good ways of showing which techniques will and won't work, but as many have said, it's not the be all and end all. However, I would be much more inclined to listen to a ufc fighters opinion on a technique than most "masters".
    There is nothing wrong with jjj or other trad arts, it's a matter of training them properly, in alive methods to get them to work. Sure,learn the kata first, but then it's straight into reality testing. No compliant uke's. I'll be the first to admit that many techniques I have been shown don't work for me, either because of body type/strength of opponent/too fiddly, but I enjoy my art as a whole, so I take out the techniques that work for me and work well(the bread and butter techniques so to speak). This is what being a good fighter is about. Simplicity as stated before, whether in wristlocks or other techniques, is essential.
    Since I haven't posted in the intros section, my background is 4 years of jjj and a year or so on and off of bjj.
     
  10. Aegis

    Aegis River Guardian Admin Supporter

    This is the only bit that I'd disagree with, unless you consider 2 man drills to be kata as well. I personally feel that pressure testing should be on something of a sliding scale, so you should first learn how to do a technique (ie proper positioning, balance, grip, movement, etc), then learn how to do it on someone resisting.

    Other than that, there's not much I'd like to add/say about your post, most of it's been said over and over already. You can view most of my opinions on the matter earlier in this thread.

    Welcome to MAP
     
  11. benkei

    benkei Valued Member

    Two man drills, any drills for that matter are kata. Kata is simply the Japanese term for "way of doing something". In JJJ, that generally means two man drills.
    And I already have read everyone's opinions on the thread, and I must say I'm surprised, this is the first bjj vs trad jj debate I've seen that hasn't descended into name calling and flame wars. I'm rather impressed....
     
  12. Aegis

    Aegis River Guardian Admin Supporter

    We aim to please ;)

    The thing about 2-person drills is subject to opinion. Kata to me implies that everythign has to be done exactly the same way each time, with no room for personal interpretation and no contingency. Our 2 person drills are when we're supposed to do a technique however we can get to it, and if it goes wrong, we do something else, or look like we are then go back to the first technique again.
     

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