UFC Jujitsukas. Dumb Question

Discussion in 'Ju Jitsu' started by Dropbear, Mar 29, 2004.

  1. hedgehogey

    hedgehogey Banned Banned

    Tell me where I said that. What an assumption!
     
  2. hedgehogey

    hedgehogey Banned Banned

    Point. But there are plenty of vale tudo events where they're allowed. UFC is not the only MMA event out there.
    Wait...Because we prepare for a fight we are unprepared to fight when taken by surprise?
    And where do you get off assuming we're unawar of our sorroundings? Just because we're prepared for a specific fight we're going to be in (which is just common sense) doesn't mean we're not aware that anyone can be attacked at any time (also common sense).

    Of course there's a simple test you can do. Go sucker punch mark coleman. He will laugh. Then god help you after that.

    A fighter who is used to the impact of a punch is much better prepared to be ambushed than someone who prepares for "street combat" with compliant partners.

    Martial arts is much more than just the techniques. A big part is the toughness that can only be developed through hard contact sparring.
     
  3. Poop-Loops

    Poop-Loops Banned Banned

    Even in hard contact sparring, you can't do everything you'd like to do to a street thug. Whether it be kick in the groin, stomp, bite, bash head against wall, etc.

    Of course, without sparring, you'll most likely get a panic attack if someone attacks you. That's a given. But sparring with rules too often can do the same thing.

    PL
     
  4. hedgehogey

    hedgehogey Banned Banned

    Do you fear the working class?

    How in the hell do you practice groin strikes? Stopping the strike before impact will teach you to do exactly that.

    We do that.

    Real easy way to catch a disease.

    Sprawl and snapdown=face *bleep* by the concrete.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 3, 2004
  5. Hazmatac

    Hazmatac Valued Member

    'Tis just the overall tone of all of your messeges that suggest that you think Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is better than JJJ because of the fact that Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu weeded out all of the BS of Japanese Ju Jitsu like striking, wrist locks, kata or whatever (which is why you train in your art and not mine). I'm just pointing out that Japanese Ju Jitsu is just as effective at the higher levels, and even with wrist locks (believes me). Maybe you don't think this and I am mistaken? If so, your apology for making me think so is accepted.
     
  6. hedgehogey

    hedgehogey Banned Banned

    I already listed several very old arts I respect.

    This is not a new debate. Kano settled this in *1886* when the infant kodokan (with their sports based training) went up against the traditional ryu (who practiced street lethal techniques on compliant partners). The kodokan won every fight.

    Nothing wrong with striking and wristlocks, but kata is total BS.

    And I DON'T have to apologize for your assumptions.
     
  7. Hazmatac

    Hazmatac Valued Member

    I already listed several very old arts I respect

    May I have a link?

    This is not a new debate. Kano settled this in *1886* when the infant kodokan (with their sports based training) went up against the traditional ryu (who practiced street lethal techniques on compliant partners). The kodokan won every fight.


    I am not too good on the history yet, and everybody seems to have a different version of it. So Kano, the judo master, went up against traditional Ju Jitsu schools and beat them??? Wow, I was unawares about that! Is there a place where I can get the history on this kind of stuff?

    kata is total BS.

    Kata for basing your fighting principles on, yes. Kata for remembering and passing down techniqes through the generations, no.

    And I DON'T have to apologize for your assumptions.

    Your unspoken apology is sufficient.
     
  8. hedgehogey

    hedgehogey Banned Banned

    From another jiujitsu thread. I'll just list them, a by no means all inclusive list:

    Bjj (100 years)
    judo (120)
    muay thai (500+)
    wrestling and boxing (older than dirt)

    Yet many of the "traditional" arts, like aikido and TKD were founded in the mid 20th century.

    Most of the fighters were kano's students.

    History from "mastering jiujitsu" by renzo gracie

    Back in the day, when people were illiterate, yes. Nowadays you can write them down, print them, put them on TEH INTERWEB, whatever.
     
  9. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter

    BJJ is not 100yrs old, I can't remeber off the top of my head, but I believe Maeda was in Brazil around 1915, something like that, so it's closer to 90.

    Just being pedantic,

    Col
     
  10. Aegis

    Aegis River Guardian Admin Supporter

    All but one, the style they lost against was a groundfighting based style of jujutsu probably quite similar to BJJ, which is where the majority of kodokan groundwork techniques come from

    Before this contest, judo was essentially Jujutsu practiced differently, ie it had striking, blocking, locking and throwing but comparitively little in the way of groundwork. The real difference was that they practiced at full speed, which is something traditional dojo didn't do, instead they would get a certain way into a technique and either stop or change the throw to make it easy to slide out of.

    This is now turning into a debate about training methods rather then specific techniques. What the Kodokan vs all comers match showed the martial arts world was not that Jujutsu was ineffective, but that the methods of training the techniques without real situations to test them in wasn't working too well. If you look at most modernised styles of jujutsu, they practice in much the same way as the original kodokan would have practiced, with more or less emphasis on striking and blocking, locking, throwing and groundwork depending on the style. However, regardless of the training methods employed, almost all still teach the techniques that have been called essentially useless.
     
  11. Poop-Loops

    Poop-Loops Banned Banned


    How do you suppose the samurai trained, then? Full contact with swords? No... that's probably not it. Full contact with bokken? No... wood tends to "break" when you hit it against another piece of wood, and bones tend to "break" when they get his by a big piece of wood. The only way they could train with their swords was to take a bokken, spar, and stop before they made contact. Or do it in the air. Yet you have a guy like Musashi who one 60+ duels.

    PL
     
  12. Shaolin Dragon

    Shaolin Dragon Born again martial artist

    Provided you train to kick with power in some way (e.g. focus pads), then pulling your kicks when sparring shouldn't cause you any problems.
     
  13. hedgehogey

    hedgehogey Banned Banned

    First of all, fighting with swords is a LOT different than fighting with bare hands.

    Second: They could have sparred in armor, with bokkens

    Third: Musashi was NOT a traditionalist. He said it himself, the woods and mountains were his only teachers. He believed the martial arts world was rife with commercialism and fancy techniques. He advocated challenge matches as one of the best ways for a student to learn.
     
  14. hedgehogey

    hedgehogey Banned Banned

    Exactly what i've been saying.

    And yet somehow they never seem to pull off the useless techniques in sparring...

    I fought against a judoka in a tournament that allowed striking, ground grappling and standing joint locks.

    He did not attempt yama arashi or ANY kind of wrist lock on me (not that i'm saying all wristlocks are worthless).
     
  15. Hazmatac

    Hazmatac Valued Member

    I fought against a judoka in a tournament that allowed striking, ground grappling and standing joint locks.

    He did not attempt yama arashi or ANY kind of wrist lock on me (not that i'm saying all wristlocks are worthless).


    Not all fighting is going to be done against an experienced martial artist. If you practice w/ them, you know what to expect. I was able to use a wrist lock against a perfectly resisting opponent who was a lil larger than I even though he was resisting. They do have a place. Part of the application for wrist locks is the element of surprise, and loosening up your opponent. If you can't force their wrist into a lock, we are taught to strike first (same with our throws, but those don't normally need an aditional strike)

    PS Yama Arashi is a type of hip throw, but I understand what you're getting at.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2004
  16. Hazmatac

    Hazmatac Valued Member

    Bjj (100 years)
    judo (120)
    muay thai (500+)
    wrestling and boxing (older than dirt)

    What makes you appeciate these arts over the other arts?

    Back in the day, when people were illiterate, yes. Nowadays you can write them down, print them, put them on TEH INTERWEB, whatever.

    It is part of the art as a whole. Doing this art for me is more than just fighting, it is also about a journey, both physical and mental. I think that kata enriches both. Kata may no longer be necessary, but it is tradition.
     
  17. hedgehogey

    hedgehogey Banned Banned

    The fully alive training methods. They practice athletically with fully resisting opponents.

    In my opinion, you miss the journey when you bow to a sifu and go through empty ritual. It comes from within, from confronting your fears head on.
    The growth is in the doing, not the acting. It's the hero's journey.

    Bruce lee said: "There is no actor but the act, no experiencer but the experience...To be is to be related, to see yourself in action with another human being."

    Musashi said "YOU are the spirit of the thing itself. Just be!"
     
  18. Hazmatac

    Hazmatac Valued Member

    In my opinion, you miss the journey when you bow to a sifu and go through empty ritual.

    What makes a ritual empty? What makes your belt ranking system different from an empty ritual? If you were to take it away would your art be the same?

    It comes from within, from confronting your fears head on.

    What fears would these be, hedgehogey?

    The growth is in the doing, not the acting. It's the hero's journey.

    The growth is in the entire learning experience. Maybe your boat is different than mine, but we will both arrive to the same shore.

    Bruce lee said: "There is no actor but the act, no experiencer but the experience...

    No one said that our bowing or kata is supposed to replace real live experience hedgehogey.

    To be is to be related, to see yourself in action with another human being."

    Can you explain your interpretation of this?

    Musashi said "YOU are the spirit of the thing itself. Just be!"

    And this.
     
  19. Hazmatac

    Hazmatac Valued Member

    You lie

    :woo: :D
    (me shooting the liar)
     
  20. hedgehogey

    hedgehogey Banned Banned

    Sir, please refrain from using retarded smilies.

    That said, aegis is partially right. The challenges from the fusen ryu school (who focused on ground grappling) came AFTER the 1886 tournament.
     

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