Discussion in 'Fight Discussions' started by aaradia, Jun 5, 2016.
I think we have to ban him.
MAP is an English speaking forum. Please take the time to post in plain, legible English.
4.2.1 This is not a mobile phone text service – you do not need to use abbreviations to reduce the length of your post. It makes it hard for ne1 not used 2 txt sp34k 2 read wot u r saying
Would you call someone a "dumb N" and claim it was heat of the moment?
Generally if I'm trying to insult someone I'll say whatever I think will be most insulting. To quote Chris Rock "if you're missing a leg, imma talk about the leg"
No, because it's never been in my pool of insults - if I ever said it, it would be a deliberate and calculated act.
I was using 'gay' as an insult long before I even knew what being gay was and as a result it still sometimes sneaks out it I'm not paying attention.
So any epithet is OK so long as youbwere brought up with it?
I realize that not all straight people use the term, but I have to say..............
Sorry to the straight community out there , but you don't get to throw around a word with hatred for decades, use it frequently in things like violence against the GLBT community, then all of a sudden pretend the hate speech association doesn't exist anymore and tell us we shouldn't be offended by the word when YOU decide we shouldn't.
That word has and is STILL used as hate speech against GLBT people, it is widely recognized as hate speech. You don't just get to say "but I don't mean it that way." Pure rubbish!
The modern day negative association comes from the negative association of the GLBT community. It isn't unrelated at all. The modern day association still stems from its past connection of a negative view of GLBT people.
Like it is so hard to just say another word that isn't so hateful to a large group of people?
Take a little responsibility for the history of hatred used against my community.
It's like those ridiculous people trying to say the Confederate flag isn't associated with slavery.
So far from what I said. So far.
All I'm saying is that in the heat of the moment, you can say things you now know to be unacceptable, but became a habit long before you realised that.
If I were having a conversation with my flaky-as-hell friend, and he announces that he's going to bail on me for the fifth week in a row, I might well remark "Dude, that's gay". I am in no way suggesting that his flakiness is a trait associated with a gay person. Nor am I suggesting anything about his sexuality. I am simply using a phrase that I used 'innocently' when I was a schoolchild, long before I even knew what the word meant or where it came from. Normally, I'll then wince and make some a comment about how I'm going to need to fix that verbal tick before I marry Emma Watson. Am I a homophobe? No. Am I a flawed human being? Yes.
It doesn't mean it's 'ok', in fact, neither Bisping or myself has tried to argue that it's ok. But neither do I think the social justice crazies need to throw us on a pyre.
You are free to feel offended by anything you like. I personally am mortally offended by the continued existence of the Kardashian family.
It's hate speech. This is why he immediately acknowledged it was a word he shouldn't say and why he then issued a full apology. Let's examine that - even in the middle of a full on shouting match, he recognised the damage that word can do and tried to undo it.
Pretty much all insults are hateful to one group of people or other - that's basically how they work.
No. Absolutely not. I will not take a shred of responsibility for the actions of people who I have no power over.
If one of your ancestors died fighting under that flag you might hold a slightly more nuanced position on that particular issue.
Grey is such a more interesting colour than black or white.
I used all sorts of words as a child that I don't use now.
When angry my vocabulary is extremely profane and expressive.
I don't think I have ever used, 'f*****' or 'gay' in that situation.
So either I have a completely different cultural background, which is possible. 47 year old middle class bloke from Liverpool here.
Or I just don't think of someone's sexuality as something that would insult them. What a brown haired person he is! Nope, not really working...
Aaradia, here's an example of a much more common problem with British and American English.
In Britain in the 80s and 90s many British people felt it was more politically correct to say coloured than black. Now obviously in America that usage comes with massive cultural baggage, but here the word simply does not have that history. If you took a straw poll of the people here around my age I'm sure half would use it (I don't). However when talking to Americans this can be hugely problematic, and indeed Benedict Cumberbatch was caught out by it last year.
Sweet this means Jacare is the next champ.
That's not really relevant though, is it? We're discussing the use of terms with homophobic connotations used deliberately, not terms used, however mistakenly, specifically to avoid causing offence.
A little research showed he has more of a history than I even knew. I can't post the links because he mixed other TOS unfriendly words with his anti-gay speech. But if you :google: it, you can find multiple incidents and sources without too much difficulty.
1. I found more detail about the one previous incident I did remember. It was at UFC 114. He said he "didn't want to look like a (anti-gay slur)" when vasoline got in his eye prepping for his fight.
2. UFC 127- he called Jorge Rivera that same word.
3. While not using that word, he spoke ill of a chiropractor, Using his perceived sexual preference as if it was a slur against him during a TUF Media call. (The TUF where he coached against Miller.)
4. Also used the word gay like it was a bad thing (context of the exchange) in an exchange with Chael Sonnen.
5. On the MMA hour, he put down Tim Kennedy in for UFC fighter Tim Kennedy for "dressing like a woman and acting like a queer."
Dude has a history with regards to this issue.
IMO, he didn't say he was sorry right afterwards because he was sorry or realized it was bad. He did it because he realized the media would report it and he would have to deal with the negative attention. In other words, he was sorry he got caught and would have to answer for it. He told/ asked the press to delete the comment after acknowledging he shouldn't have said it.
Well, I just threw my original statement as an reiteration of one of the many reasons I don't like him. I find it interesting that this angle has gotten more interest in discussion than British people cheering on their first UFC champ.
We British aren't nearly as tied to our cultural identity through sport as you Americans seem to be, a win for bisping isn't a win for Britain and doesn't project how great a people we are lol, or put another way you won't hear England England chanted at too many fights unless the football crowd have managed to get in.
Most British people probably think, well done bisping you worked for that along time, and that's about the extent of our association with him
Hell he probably see's himself as English not British anyway, scratch that he's northern so I can't even relate to him
However I have quite literally never heard it used as a homophobic term in England and if I did after I'd told them not to be an idiot I'd ask them why they were trying to sound American.
My point was that words may well have an unfortunate history in the US but not in the UK.
While I think referring to people who self identify as black as coloured is unnecessary, I don't think it's a mistake as such because in Britain it doesn't cause offence. Once we start modifying our language due to American sensitivities we are succumbing to cultural imperialism.
Well 3-5 unambiguously suggest that he is a bit of a tool then.
****** is a word that is used in the UK by people/kids in order to undercut and cast aspersions on the masculinity of other boys/men. It's a term that obviously has roots in homophobic hate speech. However growing up within a certain culture of use, it is entirely possible to use this term and not hold any negative, bigoted or prejudiced opinions of anyone's sexual predisposition, given that language/semantics are fluid and not fixed.
With that said, the insult perpetuates the use of a term that was born from hatred and still carries the link between unmanliness and homosexuality. I think self monitoring and the mindful filtering of its use from your vocabulary is advisable given that it shouldn't really have any place in the cultural landscape of a modern, culticultural society.
I have and occasionally do still use it. I am about as far from homophobic as it gets. Mike bisping operates in a super macho environment and grew up in north England so it's not surprising that the word still surfaces.
The word Niger has never operated as a general insult or slur in the UK so it's use as an insult is far more shocking and more telling of a persons racist ideology than gay or ****** are of a person's homophobia.
You are being interviewed and broadcast across the world.
There is no excuse.
Fluid language, being northern or any other excuse is just that, an excuse.
It's 2016, so time to stop making stupid homophobic comments.
I might be off base with this bit but there's two parts of this argument that I have some confusion about:
Firstly, that using the word makes you a thing. I can appreciate that certain words are categorised as homophobic, racist, sexist, what have you, but while you can say someone using the word has used a homophobic slur it seems a very big assumption to then label them as homophobic. Bisping does make references to it a lot so hey, maybe he is, but if it turned out he donated half his money to stonewall every fight and was lobbying for gay marriage rights or something is that undone by the fact he uses it as a slur?
My second area of confusion is that homophobic and racist insults seem to be massive no nos because they offend people within those communities, as evidenced in this thread. Holy has already covered my views on it largely with regards to how insults work, but I don't get why offence to those communities is worse than others. The example that comes to mind is I know a few women who find the C word very offensive and misogynistic. I have to admit its a word I use a lot and I know at least a couple people arguing against the gay slur use that one too. So why is it acceptable to use a word that slurs an entire gender (and talking number wise that's a far larger number of people than the LGBT community I would think) but the homophobic ones are the big taboo you should never use no matter what?
EDIT: Looking back over the thread for instance aaradia you say this:
Which I'm perfectly willing to accept I'm interpreting wrong but to me that says its okay to disparage a group (necessarily since that's how insults work) so long as its not my group or so long as its one of a smaller size. Or its about degrees of severity of insults which is massively subjective and I would argue is based quite largely in the commonality of a word anyway. Tell people they can't use a word ever and it becomes a taboo to say and just gains more power seems to be the trend. Like its perfectly acceptable in everyday language for me to say being of low intelligence makes you a less worthy or bad person if I call someone an idiot as an insult and that's perfectly cool. I call someone a vagina (not that they have one mind implying they're a woman and therefore bad, just they as a person are a vagina which doesn't even make sense) and that's a terrible thing to do.
Language is weird.
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