Maybe but statistically subs have only ever been about 20% of finishes in the UFC, so they have never been that common really, and im not saying BJJ is getting rarer, im saying its a case of both guys doing the same art and knowing the same tricks Submissions were always rare, BJJ is probably as popular in MMA as it has ever been, how its used is simply different from how its used in a non striking format
I think Hannibal pointed out that a lot of the fighters assumed to be catch fighters didn't have the lineage to really claim that to the same extent that Sakuraba and Barnett do. They both trained with Billy Robinson. Saku's approach was far more CACC then anything else. Barnett submitting Dean Lister was immediate damage control. Now, to be clear about something I don't like the MMA rules that currently favor wrestlers, and I say this even as someone who is a big fan of wrestling. I think fights should be scored on striking from the bottom and from the top rather then some automatic "Oh look! I am on top! I am winning!" even if the bottom man is far more active and inflicting more damage. Being on top or bottom should not even be in the win conditions for MMA in my opinion. They should encourage striking from both positions and score it on that, and if there is a submission then there is a submission. If there is no submission then there is no submission. Period. In College Wrestling you get points for "Riding time" which basically amounts to stalling on the top and being rewarded for it. Don't like that either.
Gotch went to Japan in the 70s and spent years there fighting and training fighters, funaki et all were his students no, as were the guys that developed the shooto organisation, to say they weren't catch guys is pushing it. As for sak how long did he spend with Robinson compared to the time he spent with takada?? Honest question I know Robinson always claimed his as one of his guys but takada also lists him as one of his four main students, so who is right? Not to mention Billy was in Japan teaching for years but the only two fighters he claims are sak and Josh...what about the rest he trained?
I think if you brought back the 12 to 6 elbow that would change that top/bottom striking dynamic a bit.
While Josh did train with Billy I thought his primary CACC training was with Suzuki and Funaki? Sak trained out of the Takada Dojo, but clearly Takada himself only trained for works. Robinson was the wrestling coach for the UWFi, so it's safe to assume that he trained Sak, and the problem with that line of enquiry is that Sak is a very talented catch wrestler and Takada clearly isn't, so if Sak didn't train with Billy who did he learn catch from?
Sak did train with Billy - a lot Takada got the rub because of the Japanese social etiquettes but was by far the inferior wrestler
I got into a conversation an CACC forum about the turtle because they suggested that a kid who did Folkstyle would be able to transition to CACC very easily. I asked about the tendency of Folkstyle wrestlers to turtle up and build their base as a defensive reaction leaving their back exposed. One of the instructors on the forum pointed out that CACC doesn't mind you being on their back, and that the turtle is in their opinion a strong defensive position. And that if you attack a CACC fighter's neck while on their back you will be met with them not just blocking the choke but attacking YOUR hand/arm as a response. Sakuraba frequently gave up his back to the Gracies and other Brazilian fighters in Pride and they frequently ended up in the Double Wrist Lock (Kimura) for taking the bait. He didn't always finish it but they tended to give up on trying to choke him after that. Ask Renzo Gracie if he felt taking Sakuraba's back was a good idea.... [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUeiuHxu9RE"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUeiuHxu9RE[/ame]
On Sakuraba... This video by BJJ Scout was a gorgeous analysis of BJJ vs. Catch Wrestling and how it worked, and specifically how Sakuraba used CACC to combat BJJ. At 7:37 they start talking about what would happen if you took Sauraba's back, after having already explained that he would tend to turtle up, build base and then stand rather then pulling guard. [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txPQMKC5Y-Q"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txPQMKC5Y-Q[/ame]
Pride was born out of the UWFi really, and was after the first wave of Japanese proto MMA. Suzuki and Funaki pretty much only fought in Pancrase, whereas the Pancrase exports from the Lion's Den won 3 UFC titles (and Funaki and Suzuki both have wins over 2 of them). Yuki Nakai was half the size of Gracie and had literally been blinded by Gordeau in the previous round. After that fight Shooto became a very BJJ influenced organisation.
They were Puroseau guys - it's "show catch" or "worked shoot" for want of a better term. Think of it as Tae Bo as compared to kickboxing Billy is - Sak was Takadas JUNIOR, not his student. I have talked with Harry about this at length and there is a difference to those who have trained WITH Billy and those who were trained BY Billy....otherwise Ric Flair and Ken Patera are catch Wrestlers too Most of them were Pro Wrestlers training for pro wrestling - few want to learn CACC for it's own sake. Even today amongst the wrestlers there s not much taste for the real article I really should interview Harry about this and maybe publish it......
Good article echoing many of the points made here http://www.mmafighting.com/2015/10/18/9494533/long-after-his-prime-sakuraba-is-in-the-position-to-save-japanese-mma
So basically everytime someone lost to the Gracie's they weren't real catch fighters so it didn't count? Because they didn't get the real training that sak got? A cynical man might consider that a Nice marketing angle worthy of rorion Gracie
It could just be that sak, a talented free style wrestler in his youth and a good judo player I think. Was simply a gifted grappler who could make pretty much anything he learned work, whilst the others who got similar training couldn't
They WERE Catch fighters in one sense...less so in others. If I competed I would be doing Catch but I am not a catch wrestler Remember it was essentially a "lost" art except for about 10 teachers...Puroseau allowed it to survive in principle and that in trun fanned the flames
The problem with this theory is that unlike BJJ which has turned into a huge money making empire Sakuraba never had any interest in creating any sort of empire. He competed for the sake of the art itself and because of his love of competition. It's not really so much as saying "It didn't count" as to point out the clear difference. If a person from an inferior BJJ school failed to beat someone of another art people wouldn't be rushing to say "Oh look! BJJ is inferior!"
And the problem with your theory is I'm not talking about sak, but the guys selling seminars off the back of his success, like Billy did, he claimed sak as his student and always talked about him, but not about any others he trained
