trying to lose weight.

Discussion in 'Health and Fitness' started by 8limbs38112, Jan 13, 2014.

  1. RaKzaroK

    RaKzaroK Valued Member

    I know, I never disagreed.
    I just mentioned my opinion in a forum.
     
  2. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    never mind holyheadjch

    i dont know why im arguing nutritional intervention with a physicist :p

    genuinely. when trying to implement IF on people in the past it was never met with much success for me simply because, believe it or not, people get it into their heads that not eating breakfast is what's causing all the trouble in their life.

    it just happens man. so we slowly have to trick them into IF over time.
    they have to see a small change to be motivated to make bigger changes.
    thats just the way the world works
     
  3. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    You flatter me, I'm just a lowly computer scientist.
    I've dragged 4 people onto a 18:6 IF program and 3 of them jumped right on it and stuck with it. 1 of them gave up after a week, mainly because he wasn't particularly interested in losing weight in the first place, but even he managed the first week, which is by far the hardest.

    Maybe I had that success because I knew these people well and they trusted that I wasn't going to lead them wrong, or maybe I got lucky (small sample size).
     
  4. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    or that they understood that IF wasnt going to kill them and were willing to do a little reading on it (reading is extra effort for the general populace)

    its probably the trust thing and the level of support they could get out of you as a friend compared to a PT, nutritionist or otherwise.
     
  5. righty

    righty Valued Member


    You say that anecdotally women find IF harder. This is perhaps true but doesn't do well for your past statement which are almost all your own anecdotal experiences expressing how easy IF was for you. And to presume lack of citations means I don't consider science? Again, just silly.

    And before you try and use this. No, I am NOT going to go and do a literature search find again find papers that support my position for an internet discussion. But since someone else already has, I’ll just post this article. Ignore the fact that it’s from a paleo blog as that’s irrelevant for the content of the article.

    http://www.paleoforwomen.com/category/fasting/

    And since you provided me with some references yourself, let’s have a look.

    Reference 1 – Only use men as subjects. Only investigating fasted vs. fed training rather than a constant fasting regime. Also a high fat diet.
    Reference 2 – Use both men and women. Again only looking at fasted vs. fed training and fasted only overnight. Women did not reap benefits as men did (as you said).
    Reference 3 – Only men again. Only fed vs. faster rather than IF again.

    So despite you saying that papers have a mix of genders among their participants, the only paper you cited that actually included women shows that women did not get the benefits men did.

    Studies such as this are notorious for using only men as subjects as women complete with more fluctuating hormones make them more difficult to make solid conclusions from.

    And I just want to restate this quote.
    While IF can be used as a tool for weight loss it’s not exclusively so. Just like eating styles such as paleo and whatnot can be a strategy for weight loss it is not a weight loss diet. It is simply a style of eating regarding of whether you are aiming to gain, lose or maintain weight.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2014
  6. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    I'll take a look at that when I have more time, but I note immediately that it's not dated. How old is this summary? The bulk of the research has only been published in the last few years.
    I only cited the first few papers referring to fasted training that Google Scholar gave me. There are hundreds more taking into account many other methodologies. I've not seen a study that says sensible short term fasting will necessarily lead to reductions in performance, however. You seem to be angling for the idea that long term IF will have a different impact on the bodies response to exercise than one off overnight fasts - I'm not sure why you think that is the case.

    The more general IF studies are typically more inclusive of gender.
    Hmm. IF is only useful if you are looking to lose or maintain weight. You would have an incredibly hard time gaining weight on an IF protocol.

    But you're right, it's not solely a diet like Atkins. It is a sustainable approach to diet management.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2014
  7. righty

    righty Valued Member

    It's clearly dated Jun 4, 2012.

    You basically admitted to just doing a literature search without actually vetting the results. I know that's the bit that takes time, but don't expect other to do it too.

    Fasted training is simply training in the morning before you eat breakfast. It does not use the much longer fasting window in many consecutive days that IF commonly does, so this is where the main difference is. Also, as many (I would say most) people train in the evenings, this is during the feeding window so they aren't training fasted.


    Nope. Some people have an easy time gaining weight using IF. I know of several that specifically used it for the goal of gaining weight and did so successfully.
     
  8. John R. Gambit

    John R. Gambit The 'Rona Wrangler

    Nonsense. You can eat sensibly by cutting out most processed crap from your diet while restricting calories to a more modest level quite reasonably. Does it take discipline? Yes. We're freaking martial artists, I hope not eating too many empty carbs isn't outside the realm of our discipline threshold here, especially for those with children who should be be demonstrating/establishing good nutritional habits for the health of their kids.

    Look up CRD or Caloric Restrictive Dieting. There is absolutely a legitimate reason to fast that isn't "fad."
     
  9. John R. Gambit

    John R. Gambit The 'Rona Wrangler

    No, he actually IS a pervert. Dude is a chronic couch fapper. And he tells me about it in graphic detail.

    He's actually right Righty. Fasting triggers survival genetics by activating sirtuin proteins in the human body just like what we see in animal models studied under CRD studies. You're over-simplifying metabolism. GI flora and hormones obviously also govern weight loss/gain as I know you're aware.
     
  10. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Well-Known Member Supporter

    I'm not the one with a thread of phallic sculptures on my Facebook.
     
  11. proteinnerd

    proteinnerd Valued Member


    I think this is the crux of the matter, there are a lot of people that have never tried IF telling a lot of other people that have never done it that either it doesn't work or is unnecessary.
     
  12. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Well-Known Member Supporter

    I've involuntarily been forced to fast, and fast and dehydrate consecutively. I'm grumpy enough as it is already, I don't wanna' "try" it anymore! :baby:

    In rebuttal, the psychology involved with food also seems to be underestimated in the discussion as well.
     
  13. Mangosteen

    Mangosteen Hold strong not

    you really arent even trying to read posts.
     
  14. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    I missed that (it was after midnight).

    Rather than go through the article itself, I'll just link to another article that addresses those points.
    http://www.kropblog.dk/en/intermittent-fasting-for-women/

    the summary of that article: "for non-lean women IF is a safe and tolerable approach for weight loss. The available science does not support the notion that it damages reproductive health or causes anxiety or sleeplessness. However, as with all things, certain individuals may be more susceptible to others. Also, lean women trying to get leaner are always at risk of menstrual cycle irregularities with or without fasting."
    Erm. No, I didn't admit to that because I didn't do that. I was addressing a specific point that you made relating to fasting and a reduction in athletic performance by posting citations to 3 papers that identified benefits of training whilst fasted.
    No, fasted training is training whilst fasted. As you have repeatedly snarked, the timing isn't relevant.
    IF doesn't require consecutive days and most protocols only recommend consecutive days if you are losing weight.

    Some are, some aren't. I've done it both ways. My preference is to be fed, because it's more comfortable.


    I'd love to know how they were doing it. My only guess is that they were only fasting for one day a week. The reason IF works for weight loss is that is it incredibly hard to ingest 2 days worth of calories in 1 day. To gain weight, you would need to ingest more than 2 days worth (all assuming alternate day fasting).
     
  15. Ros Montgomery

    Ros Montgomery Valued Member

    It really isn't. I spent all of Christmas doing just that. In fact, I think I probably had a week's worth of calories in one evening. :D
     
  16. holyheadjch

    holyheadjch Valued Member

    Sure, you might be able to eat 6000 kcals of calorie dense crap, but that would defeat the object in the first place.
     
  17. proteinnerd

    proteinnerd Valued Member

    LOL I think everyone has done that. Try doing it on consecutive days for a long period of time....thats a different story. I simply couldn't consume 3200 calories worth of food in my 8 hour window consistently during my last attempt to bulk on IF.
     
  18. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    so you still have to watch what you eat when you're not fasting?
     
  19. proteinnerd

    proteinnerd Valued Member

    It depends on your goals to a degree. IMO and according to Martin Berkham (pretty much the originator of the popularisation of the current IF trend) yes you do still need to track your calories and there are definite recommendations on total calories and macro nutrient splits.

    His version is definitely not a free for all at the buffet for 8 hours. Dont get me wrong, you still eat large meals everyday but its not an excuse to live off KFC and Pizza Hut and expect the weight to miraculously disappear BUT there is probably more leeway than on a regular calorie controlled diet.

    If you somehow manage to eat 5000 Cal a day for weeks on end, you will still put on weight, but limiting the time you allow yourself to eat just makes it more difficult to overeat in the first place.

    BUT having said that, there are a lot of IFers that don't necessarily want to get "ripped" abs and just do want to lose a bit of weight. If you aren't after sub 10% body fat and just want to control your weight, sticking to eating whole foods of a "healthy" or non processed variety would probably work without being too anal and tracking macros. Two of my friends take this approach and it seems to be working for them quite well...they are happy with it.
     
  20. Giovanni

    Giovanni Well-Known Member Supporter

    so again, this is what i always come back to with this: why fast when all any of us really need to do is eat properly. you're saying that indeed, one can't hit kfc, pizza hut after the fast.

    if you can't control yourself from eating a massive cheeseburger, fries, soda pop every day, then i think you've got another problem. but if we just eat properly most of the time, and occasionally do eat the aforementioned cheeseburger, then that seems like a fine method of maintaining or even losing (if calories are properly counted)

    or if you do choose to eat a cheeseburger, fries and soda every day and want to maintain a weight, then realize that the amount of that you can eat is probably well below what the adverts are telling you. occasionally, i go to mcdonald's (kids wants to go, or we're driving somewhere far and need dinner on the road). when i do go, i order a burger and a water, because that comes out to about 500 calories. no, that's not what mcdonald's is advertising you should eat when there (get the whole shebang and an ice cream cone to boot). but we do need to take responsibility for our intake too.
     

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