Triangle (Tiga)

Discussion in 'Silat' started by Dr. Heineken, Mar 30, 2006.

  1. Dr. Heineken

    Dr. Heineken New Member


    I am able to follow both of those scenarios; thank you for giving an indepth response!
    It looks like Djuru 12, as TuanKaki said. The shoulder throw looks like "sambut 8"(VDT). The use of tiga is of upmost importance in terms of off-balancing the guy, and then the sempok to set your base.

    Don't worry about talking down to me or worrying about tone on this medium. You have made it clear that you are willing to share information and seem to be quite knowledgeable as well. Thank you.

    The badan fisika and "put your foot here and not there" is all very hard to get a hold of. i hope that for all of the people who have read these posts are learning something, or at least questioning the validity of the information. Trying to disprove something opens a lot of doors as well. Acknowledge what it is, why it works, or doesn't work. and understand what is being transferred.

    Does anyone else have any questions or ideas that we can explore?

    Thank You.

  2. Fireshadow

    Fireshadow New Member

    Actually I stepped into the politics thing right when I came on this forum. I saw it and I walked right into it and..... (sniff, sniff) it is still on my shoe. Poor judgement on my part (not because I am wrong, just because I have no good way to prove it.) At any rate I will try to stay out of the politics and just try to help people with their silat.
    I am not familiar with the term "badan fisikah", could you please give me a translation?
    As far as the upper and lower arts, they work interdependantly. I would say they are not totally independant of each other. However you do always have a tiga with your shoulder line as the base in which ever direction you face with the upper body and the feet also always have a tiga dua on either side from wherever they are lined up. Sometimes these tigas are not easy to activate due to positioning of opponent, etc. That's why we have other langkahs in BN, so you can switch and activate (or just activate, switching is a process.) In my understanding, any time that you are sweeping their is a shoulder position that is relevant (thus the legs can't be totally independent). In beginning BN, it is typical that everything is very robotic, so that it is easier to learn. The robotic nature of the beginning phases also lets us learn were our shoulders are (all sweeps are relevant to shoulder lines?) as do jurus, training on the langkahs, and various drills. Also in the beginning, the techiques are typically very linear (in more than one sense) and the upper dimension is busy with grabbing and holding to make the anchors for sweeps occur. Grabbing and holding is not bad, but it isn't necessary as the strikes, blocks, jerks, etc. should "set" the person for a swift sweep. That way we avoid wrestling around, and we can wack the other person (even during the sweep) with both hands, elbows. Again, this is a function of training and not easily acquired by just learning techniques. However, since we can not train over the internet, I will refer back to situation #2. If you are referencing your tiga at the point you are raking down the body, you will notice that we stepped in for a full beset. This is not necessary and takes a while (although it is effective and works and our safeties are in place). We did not grab anything as the rake was our "set". From here let's look at a few more options and I will try to incorporate independent upper and lower dimension (I still like to refer to it as interdepedent.)
    Option 1
    After the rake (or kinda during), launch your guarding hand at your opponent if he is well "set". You should be able to knock him flat (like shooting tin cans off a fence).
    Option 2
    At the time of the rake, shoot your left foot (depok) behind your opponents left calf for a beset luar. Your range must be correct and if it is, you shouldn't have to step just put insert your foot behind your opponents calf. Your rake is still in place so you should be able to sweep your opponent parallel to your shoulder line and as the foot is sweeping the hands, elbows should be able to cut loose independently. This can be difficult as a technique.
    Option 3
    Same as option 2, only be adjusted and insert a beset dalem with your right foot.

    Your training should provide you with strikes, safeties, multiple back-up plans, etc. Training should instill a way of moving. Thanks.
  3. Fireshadow

    Fireshadow New Member

    Excellent. Sempok is awesome and effective, but with balance and training there are faster foot changes. Do you have anything that I could be talking about? I'm not sure.
    This stuff should be very hard to disprove. If it's not there you can't take it, if it is you can. It is a math equation. The important part is the =. If distancing is wrong, or something else you must either change yourself (or preferably) change your opponent, so that you can create another equation.
  4. Steve Perry

    Steve Perry Valued Member


    Stayed tuned for a public service announcement:

    Um, no, you tracked the politics in with you -- the suggestion you offered -- that the students under Guru Plinck should call our art something else, well, that isn't really a way to help folks with their silat, now is it?

    If you saw it and you walked right into it, you can't complain. If you tracked it in on the rug yourself, you really can't complain.

    And you are right -- you have no way to prove that assertation, good or otherwise. Oh, I could prove it, but, you know, I took an oath not to say anything.

    Convenient, that.

    Why am I harping on it? Because you don't get a free pass with sucker punches. If you wanted to leave "politics" out of it, then comments like the one you made above ought to be left at the door with your shoes.

    Back to your regularly scheduled programming ...
  5. Tuankaki

    Tuankaki Valued Member

    Good call.
    Translates as "Body Physics", which is where the platforms really shine for me. Although Christopher's initial question had to do with longer range issues, which might not as easily be described as body physics problems.
    If I'm picturing the scenario accurately, my first move already places my R foot very near his lead L foot. and if I'm close enough to be inside the power of the cross, and to do a downward rake, then I'd probably see it this way...

    The rake will compress him at least a little, bringing the head down. I will be in a lower sikap as a result too. My inclination would be not to take a L foot step at all (too slow and possibly risky, depending on the efficacy of the pressure from the rake) but to adjust my R foot behind his L foot/calf, and drag my rear foot so as to stay hip-to-hip. From there, depending on distancing, if I was deep enough I'd maybe go into kinjit modality, if not, I'd explode upward with a R hand backfist (really a forearm smash) with simultaneous sapu luar, a motion that is trained quite a bit within the upper jurus in a magazine I read, and which is formally performed most commonly in Jurusan Sepak. If I was really lucky, I'd execute the sweep with my knee (well, quadriceps) up under his buttocks so as to shock and destroy his lumbar stabilty, and also to minimize the possibility of his stepping out. The sweep would be along the line of my tiga, and the Rightward torquing of my torso concurrent with the forearm/backfist, will have brought my shoulders in proper alignment with the sweep. Kind of like a full-body gunting. Then of course, stomping out of the sapu on whatever is left down there.

    Sounds good on paper anyway! Thanks for the discussion.
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2006
  6. tellner

    tellner Valued Member

    Stepped in it? No. You carried it in and started slinging it. Then you said "It's someone else's mess. I'm just here to spread the Word to the benighted masses." It doesn't work that way. When you show up and immediately start in on people, insulting their teacher and making some pretty serious - not to mention incredibly arrogant - accusations you can't really expect the targets of your attacks to sit there and passively take it on your unsupported and often incorrect word.

    It would also be a pretty poor advertisement for Pendekar de Thouars if the things you were saying were actually true. Really good martial artists - Cliff Stewart good, Steve Plinck good, Dan freakin' Inosanto good - could spend decades working at this with the Pendekar and not learn the important stuff. He would have to be a pretty poor teacher indeed. Fortunately, it's not true. He's an incredible instructor. They learned an awful lot from him. This is all about other things like politics, personalities, control and character assassination.
  7. Gajah Silat

    Gajah Silat Ayo berantam!

    Ya Tuhan :rolleyes: ,

    Guys, this was supposed to be a non-political thread :bang:

    I have no experience of American Silat, but in our style it is like this....

    Segi Tiga is the first of 7 langkahs. It is the basis!

    We do it high, we do it low, we do it middle, we do it left & right , inside and out.

    We also use it to avoid stepping in the 'mess' :D

    Otherwise, a triangle is the only shape that will always seek stability and this is the basis.

    Oh, and we also use segi tiga for serangan belati. By this I mean we attack with the knife in a triangular form and combine this with triangular footwork. Kinda double triangle!
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2006
  8. realitychecker

    realitychecker New Member

    Tiga Dua,


    First I would like to ask how the Tiga Dua is used. Are sambuts practiced with opponents starting at opposite points of the Tiga's? Are we then talking about 'size-specific lines in those Tiga's? Are the Tiga's always back to back, or are they ever hour glass shaped (point to point)?

    I was wondering if the 'size specific' thing was relevant to Di Vinci's research in human physiology.

    Do any of you practice any good counter for counter drills/patterns empty handed? If so, please explain. The guys I train with and I have been working a few different drills lately where we gradually escalate the speed and intensity, and it always ends up counter for counter-then sparring, then a 'victory' (or defeat, if you look at it that way. I look at it as "passing through knowledge to get to understanding ;) ). Unless your sparring partner tears some important ligaments in your knee...

    What are some de Thouars Silat (PC :Angel: )- specific drills, or 'alive training? Done on platforms?

    I would also like some opinions on training frequency. I would please like to get honest replys about how folks 'solo train'. How many minutes/hours a day?per week? What is the primary emphisis?jurus?lankas? What motivates you?
    I appreciate the advice!!!
    Take care all!
  9. realitychecker

    realitychecker New Member


    A couple more questions to my last questions on "solo training".

    Music, or silence? If music, rock and roll? drum beats? symphony? Yanni :eek: ? Do you have a 'special' place you like to train?
    I like to train where ever I am at the moment I feel like I need to train, but when I set aside time I go into my basement. Yourselves?
    Thanks again!
  10. Gajah Silat

    Gajah Silat Ayo berantam!

    Woah Man, I'd love a basement :eek:

    To be honest, solo training can seem unrewarding, as much of our stuff is sambut based. So I try to either visualise, or use my garden punchbag! Otherwise the only way to ingrain stuff is by repetition.

    However, does anyone else find that langkahs can take over in the most mundane of times?

    For instance, in my job, I work between two areas and sometimes find myself sometimes unconciously langkah-ing between them :confused:

    This combined with constantly bruised forearms in varying shades of brown to green, has led my colleagues to believe I'm an utter fruitcake :D

    Oh and RC, I actually purposefuly try not to over-intellectualise stuff.

    If you were in Asia, you would rarely get a lengthy explanation on body mechanics. Rather, do it like this....a million times...and that's how you understand :confused:
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2006
  11. tellner

    tellner Valued Member

    Solo training is very important, but there are limits to what you can learn from it. For combative timing or sensitivity, just to name two, you need other people, preferably many different sizes and shapes. In the three-legged race between knowledge, ability and understanding you need different mixes of single-person drills, partner drills and sparring of one sort or another. How much at any particular time? That's what you have a teacher for.

    Doing things while standing on the platforms has its place. If you are going to really use those angles and reference points they need to be deeply ingrained alone and with a partner or opponent. That way you'll always know where you are and what you can do no matter where you find yourself. You'll know where you or someone else is weak or strong, range, and possible appropriate tools. But it's a mistake to spend too much time obsessing about them. If you spend too much time on "He's at point A of triangle 1. I'm at point Q of triangle 4. So I need to move to point K of square 6 to set up for a throw," you passed the point of diminishing returns a couple exits back. If they're a solid reference you're good. If they become an elaborate end in themselves you've gone too far.

    Music? It depends. Sometimes it's a distraction. Other times it can be very useful. Music can alter the energy level of the class and invoke different moods. At the early stages it keeps students in good time. Of course, more advanced practitioners can learn to work around the beat the way that a good musician does. I will say this, when our teacher decided we were ready to go deeper into distance and timing I was floundering. We noticed that a drum store (Rhythm Traders) had moved into the area and offered African and Conga drumming classes. Learning it was a lot of fun and helped our Silat immensely. A lot of martial artists talk about "broken rhythm". For this ethnically rhythm-challenged White American it made no sense at all until I had some grasp of rhythm at all.
  12. Gajah Silat

    Gajah Silat Ayo berantam!

    "He's at point A of triangle 1. I'm at point Q of triangle 4. So I need to move to point K of square 6 to set up for a throw," LOL :D

    This was kinda my point. Surely the object is to ingrain movements to the extent of instinct. Bypass the critical factor & imprint it in your 'lizard brain'.

    Oh and before anyone envisages me shimmying around the hospital in long low that's not quite what I meant :D :rolleyes: Morelike turning 180 sort of happens automatically ;) Anyone else's langkahs taken control of their legs?
  13. Orang Jawa

    Orang Jawa The Padi Tribe-Guardian

    Hello all....
    I was going to keep my mouth shut but I can't....
    Holly Mackerel! Lets take a deep breath.... concentrated on the topic, I think is Tiga, right?
    Hey now!
    I'm not going to touch on the tiga principles or applications. I'm going to tell everyone about silat techniques in general.
    Either in jurus/langkah/sambut or solo training, we must pay attention to this:

    The leading side yields an open position. The open is good for attack with both hands and both feet, but provides a greater target for counter attack.
    Rear side yields a closed position. The close stance allows limited attack but guard the centerline.

    We must always strive to do the least both is energy and movement, but yet accomplish the most. To block and to counterattack with the same action is better than blocking, then counter attacking. The study of silat is a life-long progress of economy of motion or using its body to its best advantages.

    Contributes power and reach to the techniques. On each technique, we must strive for maximum reach and power. This is only found through continued practice

    The arms and legs are fast and deceptive, but not as powerful as the hips, which are slow. The objective of the techniques is to make contact with the target. Deception and explosiveness are the two key elements for a successful technique. The independent movement of the arms and legs separate from the movement of the body contributes to the explosiveness of the technique. And arm can be extended before the opponent can react. With arm dragging the body rather that the body pushing the arm, explosiveness and deception are complimented.

    Footwork and movement are important for deceptiveness. 90% of footwork is ad lib. You can counter shuffle, etc. You try to move against your opponent as you would move against a snake. Get as close as you can without being bitten. You try to evoke a response.
    Your movements are external, not internal
    Body movements are of four elements:
    1. Dipping
    2. Twisting
    3. Shoulder roll
    4. Footwork-step, shuffle, creep, bounce, and jump.

    The way one direct his body, e.g., one can lead with his nose, shoulders, head, etc. The way a person sets his body often reveals what techniques the fighter will throw. A shoulder position can conceal the leading center.

    Zig zag, move in and out, change postures, etc. if a path is blocked by the use of the opponent's feet or hands, changes directions. As in football, the quarterback throws where the defenders are not present.

    Make the opponent think you are in certain way when you are really not, e.g. you throw several short back fists to make the opppnents your arem is short, then hit with an extended move.
    Finally understanding the functions of the body. Extension for the attacking, blocking, faking, etc.
    Now I'm going to drink my coffee :)
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2006
  14. Fireshadow

    Fireshadow New Member

    Thanks for the translation. As far as your option goes, it works for me. I would say that if you are going to kinjit make sure you move him to your shoulder line (if you weren't already doing it.) It is much safer than conforming to your opponent. Also, keep in mind (if you haven't already) that most boxers have more of an open stance, so this could make some difference to how you visualize your techniques. What you said sounds good to me.
    As you mentioned, the L foot step can be dangerous and difficult, but we must always push ourselves to do the more difficult stuff while training. We might need it, it opens up options, and it also enhances our balance for the "easy" stuff. I am always amazed when I see PDT do a technique (with ease) that I find difficult. It inspires me to be "just like that guy, when I get that age." Again, I think the stuff you are saying works great, and you got to go with what you can activate in combat. I find that I can't always activate the stuff (principle, etc.) I am working hard on at the time. I tend to fall back on the stuff I've got.
  15. Tuankaki

    Tuankaki Valued Member

    Agreed on the kinjit. Trying a kinjit with open hips and shoulders is begging to be thrown. I would probably turn into the kinjit while grabbing the head, (back to jalan juru-juru 9 or 12 lurus) so the kinjit becomes a compressive breakdown as opposed to a throw, per se. To relieve the compression for whatever reason, I can always beset to the tiga point, and drop or not into juru 17 modality. I don't like to kinjit someone to my back and have to turn around as I've seen elsewhere - UNLESS there's another environmental factor, such as another Bad Guy to my left.

    I tend to fall back on the stuff I've got too -- it hurts! But hey, everything works on the internet!
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2006
  16. Fireshadow

    Fireshadow New Member

    As far as personally training on the tiga (possibly for juru work), the tiga should be size-specific for BN. Two and a half of your own bare feet is our own measurment. PDT calls these your battle lines and stepping longer can really mess with your balance. I believe you can reference BN juru 2; even when you do this juru don't go outside the lines with your feet. Many people do because they can't make the horse stance for juru 2. I was told by my instuctors (Tim A., Dan H., and PDT) that if this is the case your horse stance isn't good enough (its all better now). The body has specific proportions, so training on your size specific langkah helps tremendously.
    As far as training in a class setting, in BN, we make the langkah about 24 inches which is pretty good for adults as a reference.
    For a tiga dua training exercise, we have been setting the tiga dua up and feeding each other off of it. You will notice that if you stand on a point and your opponent stands on a point you are in striking range if your opponent steps to the center (your hackles should be raised). If 10 is as hard or fast as an opponent can feed at you have your opponent try to feed at you with a smooth 2, 3, or 4. Clear your mind, and when he feeds try to spring into action with your hands. Let whatever happens, happen. Later on you can add other feeds, having your opponent step down the lines, etc. I would recommend just using it as an entry/activation drill to begin with and then later on going to sweeps (take your time, because if you can't get the blocks and hits what is the use practicing sweeps?). You should work to be smooth and to get an "ahhhh" feeling instead of a pitty pat. You can also do a lot of other drills and of course generic techniques. This is a great place to start though.
    As far as point to point triangle, remember the Pendekar saying "Langkahs go from here to your house." Does that answer your question.
    For counter for counter, we use sambutan and it is sometimes difficult to keep from speeding up. This can be a great way to do the drill though. If you want to keep the drill going you have to work with your partner and sometimes slow down (get the competition out of your head.) Punctuating with hits sometimes can be used to slow things down, too.
    A great "alive" training drill is to think "what if". What if I walk around the corner and someone attacks me? What if while I am waiting in line at the bank these people try to jump me? What if I my girlfriend/wife takes that knife and tries to cut me (this may sound silly but as a firefighter/paramedic I have seen an equal number of fatal stabbings recieved from girls/wives as I have that other guy.)? At any rate you are trying to learn to "turn on the switch". Don't get paranoid with it, the training should be relaxed. Think of how this combines with the tiga dua drill.
    As far as training frequency goes, I am fortunate to be able to train almost daily. Usually jurus and stuff on the "light" days (approximately 20 to 30 minutes). 2-3 hours with my instuctor per week. 7 hours teaching class per week. 1-4 hours of teaching private lessons per week. Weekend seminars or Cali training sessions as they come.
  17. Fireshadow

    Fireshadow New Member

    Gajah Silat,
    Right on with the langkah stuff man. When I was waiting for my wife the other day I found a sliwa in the carpet pattern that was just my size. I couldn't resist. I also couldn't agree with you more than on over-intellectualization. We spend 2/3 to 3/4 of our classes on drilling and the techniques always relate back to the drills. I am trying to get people to relate the technique back to the training that they have. Unfortunately, that is all I am able to do as the training drills are hard to work on the internet. The drills and training make it stick together.
  18. Fireshadow

    Fireshadow New Member

    Excellent. Keep in mind what I said about moving your opponent to kinjit. Can you think of jurus to do it with in a small motion?
    As far as kinjit to your back, instead as soon as the person starts to fall, drop your kinjit arm to track across his body and retreat with your forward leg (the one you used for the kinjit seiko). With a little practice and sensitivity you can keep him on your shoulder line and you end up standing next to his torso or head. A lot of times you will also catch the arm when you track or, at least, you can get a nice strike in.
  19. tellner

    tellner Valued Member

    Another thing to consider, as Bart may be getting ready to do, is the length of the platform.

    The size isn't some magical fixed number that The Flying Spaghetti Monster drew on the ground with His Noodly Appendage. It tells you where you are and what human anatomy will allow you to do easily from where you are. If your feet are close, the platform is shorter. When they are farther apart you are lower, and it is longer. The lower you are the greater the range of your steps and sweeps, assuming your leg strength and flexibility are up to the task. As these improve you will be able to fight effectively from a lower position when that is what the situation calls for.

    As the level changes so do some things about your stance and body mechanics. When your feet are farther apart the hips "uncork" somewhat, and it's harder to be single-weighted.

    In the beginning it's a good idea for students to practice on a platform defined by a normal walking step. It's an anatomical measurement they're familiar with. Most of them can maintain good structure and keep mobile. But a particular size platform for everyone? Not necessarily a good idea. My wife is 5'3". Steve Perry is probably a foot taller. A 24" platform is short for him, more of a stretch for her. They can fight on an arbitrary-sized platform after internalizing their motion on ones defined by their individual anatomy.
  20. Tuankaki

    Tuankaki Valued Member

    14 works pretty good. NOTE: You know, I'm editing this, because that's a beginner's answer. It's in djuru 1. That's why the exchange structure, and the bringing to "home". 14 could be viewed as a reinforced application of that, and 5 could be seen as a compressive punctuation of it, but it's in the basic tenants of the way we move. Juru 1. My final answer!

    Indeed, that's the way I saw it in the video store, hooking his arm on the way down, retreating leg dropping to one knee, and finishing with a cunchi. What I am suggesting with the beset, is that this accomplishes the same thing with the added flavor of a line change with the retreating leg. By doing it this way, you have an opportunity for neck compression with the beset leg, and you're still behind his guns but your torso has rotated back to 9:00 so as not to have your centerline as open or to get kicked in the head by an angry falling person. In fact, can you visualize how it is now possible to integrate a tarik kepala by changing lines in this way? I believe you also gain the advantage of being able to remain standing, instead of having to drop to the knee of the retreating leg to stay close. Finally, I wanted to throw it in as another possible application of the tiga, the topic of the thread.

    As for dropping the arm, if I wasn't going to grab the head, I might instead want to be aware of djuru 7, to prevent the angry falling person from grabbing my head on his way down. I hear that only happens in seminars but I'm not taking any chances. At least on the internet. Fun chat, thanks.
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2006

Share This Page