Training under Asian supervision vs. Western supervision

Love speaks the universal language, so does IMA IMHO. The sweet science of mind and body in nature exists in both logic and creativity. The understanding of which relegates word to the lower reaches of the table. It matters most to those that understand the least.

Soggy, Gerard use more of your right hemisphere.


Here's a nice story about cats, I'm sure they could all learn from eachother, even if they didn't speak the same language.

Enjoy

http://www.zenkyoshin.com/inspirationsdata/zencats.htm

 

Depends on the skill (not nationality or race) of the translator. Each reader will then see with their own eyes and each listener will hear with their own ears. One of the marvels of Chinese classical texts is their use of code (alchemy and secrecy ime), subtlety and ambiguity - these baffle many native speakers as much as anybody else. The challenge for any translator is which angle they will put across into English or how much commentary and/or footnotes to put in any translation they do. I have lost count of the versions of Tao Te Ching (Dao de jing) I have read and/or own. My favourites are those that speak from the heart of the translator, such as Ursula K LeGuin's and Witter Bynner's versions, also the (unpublished) Ron Hogan (orig. J Garon) is particularly enjoyable (this can be found for download from the net if you look hard enough - you'll probably hate it lol). Now this is philosophy, yes? Not martial art. Martial art is physical - philosophy and classics are just helpers on the way (Way). BUT seeing as you insist on twisting this subject back to language again and again and you also claim to be a 'Taoist' (none such thing btw did I mention that? ) - despite the psychotic jump required in the logic - let's stay with your premise and use Dao de jing as an example, ok? Despite the differences in translations, I think even you would accept that the opening lines of Dao de jing aprroximate to:
"The Tao that can be named is not the Great Tao, the name that can be named is not the eternal name" Note: however you translate it, it does not say "in Chinese" or "translated into English" - it is blanket. It cannot be described. Now, Dao influenced martial art is rooted in this philosophy Soggy. Even those who dismiss this aspect here must still accept that historically Dao is the refuge of IMA practitioners. And you and I are both persons who study and retain this in our practices, are we not? So if you translate Dao (an untranslatable word lol including in the original Chinese as mentioned above) as Way or Nature or IS or how things are or the secret patterning of seen and unseen phenomena or the nature that is beyond all understanding or the primordial and original energy that underlies all realities or the original or the ineffable or that which cannot be described, only experienced or mystery or the gateway and the path or a person running along a path or infinity or power or totality or any other limited verbosity you or I care to reduce it down to (lol) and apply that to the Inner work of martial art the conclusion we have to come to is that understanding it will not be acheived - or blocked for that matter - by language alone - it's just too big. Regardless of race or origin or linguistic capacity, human beings are all struggling to grasp Dao, existence, life, god or gods or whatever. This is "the human condition" lol. My favourite straw I clutch is "the Buddha is Life itself" - but let's stick with Dao for now. The reason I take issue with what you are saying is not that there may or may not be an advantage to speaking Chinese or having an Asian instructor at all, it is the assumption that all Asian instructors are good, that being a western person makes your capacity somehow inferior or limited and that Chinese people somehow have a grasp of these ideas that is to do with being Chinese. This is just prejudice imo. Also your comments about Chinese people speaking English. We are all human beings, Soggy - some of us will become highly skilled through practising Daoist(none such thing of course) IMA, some of us will fail and some of us will run our lives out of online encyclopedias and become slaves to our intellects.

I'm not so confident I could say what an entire section of the world's populace thinks 'matters' or doesn't think 'matters', Soggy. That's what I mean! Who can possibly say? 'Some' or 'imo' or 'imo/e'.... would be useful for promoting dialogue rather than setting yourself (and everyone else) up for an argument each time you boot up your computer lol

Are you actually being serious with this line?? lol okay I'll 'assume' you are Have you ever been in love soggy? do you feel love? Does one, five or a million words (or dumb-butt wikepedia lol) actually tell you what love is if you've never felt it? As the chinese poem says: "like a bilind man trying to describe the sun" methinks. How interesting you picked the most universally known ineffable human concept to use as an example? (I think your subconscious may be getting tired of your ego and intellect's rampancy and sabotaging you from below consciousness lol) Literature of all nations is filled with endless poetry and writings on the subject of Love - why is that? Linguistics by numbers, soggy? Lingo schlingo imo

As I have known you for some time now, Soggy please alllow me to appeal to what I perceive to be a fully functioning aspect of your consciousness (I suspect you will not have liked the previous paragraph... )
http://thesaurus.reference.com/search?q=love
Look in here./\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ BUT IMO this is not how language works it is not numbers. Just as IMA is not talk. IMA is inner cultivation and outer pugilism harmonised imo

I think I already covered that above.

Yup and er not a very good one imo (I wonder how many greek words there are for 'idiot' btw?)

What is this desperate and frankly, humiliating and embarassing need you have to be intellectually justified Soggy? If you want to study words, use a dictionary or a thesaurus, if you want to study IMA use your body - train stances - do forms - push hands - spar etc etc then you'll get it eventually.
The thing that amazes me is you just can't accept when you're wrong.
My teacher had a great expression for someone in your position in this thread:
"(they have) ****ed past the pot" ROFLMAO AT YOU!!!!
Grow up and let's talk about IMA for a change
:Angel:

 

Gerard - the reason so many people are going to train in China may be good or bad depends on the individual and how discerning they are....BUT ask some older Chinese martial artists what they think of the modern Shaolin and Wudang monasteries/temples. Tourism seems to be the popular view. I can't say what valid training there may be hidden in amongst all that as I haven't been there. When I go looking for 'source training' I just go to Dao and wait for it - it comes every time if you're patient. IMA comes from Dao, it is carried by people in their minds, bodies, energy and bones not flags, robes or uniforms. But hey you do what you like m8
Geo - great story about the cats btw
:Angel:

 

good stuff TB.

I like 'malaka', yep there's plenty I can tell you

Soggy needs to drop that shovel now!

 

As usual TB seems to say it all though i can answer one of TBs questions "soggy have you ever been in love?" the answer is yes..........himself. As for being narrow minded i think if we go back through the posts the same two people keep coming up as narrow minded. :bang: :bang:

Soggycat seems to have plenty of theory but i still have seen little proof he actually practises any thing like a martial art. Do you actually do anything Soggy or do you just talk alot.


As for Chinese teachers they are in it for the money the same as anybody else. There is a well known eastern teacher out there who has written more than a few books and charges his students loads of dosh to do courses or train with him. I get the same knowledge from my English teacher for next to nothing. The eastern teachers students are laughable even with all the money paid out. According to you though they must be better than me.
I

 

Examples Please!!

Ok, Soggy... You've given a thousand examples of the difficulties of translating Greek, Italian Opera, and more... Now, how about an example of a CHINESE term, sentence, or paragraph that you think is not adequately translatable into English and which you think is important for higher-level practice of CMA? (I don't say IMA, by the way, because I don't like the term--but you can read my views on that in "Shaolin IS Internal.")... Peng, lu, ji, an, yin, yang, nian, jin, --all of these are easily translatable or explainable. And don't give me that tired old "dao ke dao fei chang dao" line. (Or, if you must, explain to me with a substantive example why understanding it is important to practicing high-level CMA).

Also, you still fail to understand that CMA is an entire specialized world unto itself even within the context of Chinese culture. My girlfriend is Taiwanese and yet she is rarely much help in translating my Shifu's DVDs because the Chinese vocabulary related to martial arts is so specialized and she doesn't practice martial arts. Give me a specific example of a martial arts text or phrase and an explanation of why those same terms cannot be adequately translated into or explained using English and I will conceed that you have a point.

 

"It's all gone quiet over there...."

 

Oh man, this thread is still going on.

Okay:
let's break it down. I am a Chinese person born into a Mandarin speaking household, I did not start learning English until I was five and moved to America where I still communicated with my parents through Mandarin. In my study there are some things that are difficult to translate from Chinese to English, but usually it's not terms or concepts but rather the flow of the text (see: Hong Lou Meng, dream of red chamber. It reads very differently in Chinese and English because the Chinese text is so weird. Most texts however, have better translation, like Romance of the Three Kingdoms). I have successfully informed several friends about what my very Chinese practice of Ancestor Worship entails, and they in turn have explained various Western things to me that I did not grow up understanding.

To be honest, there's not a huge language barrier between Chinese and English, in fact I think there's more of a barrier between English and Chinese because English is so much more complex and descriptive than Mandarin, with thousands of more ways to express concepts and ideas.

Now, let's assume that some things simply are untranslatable, then let's come up with the the following conclusion:
You won't get any more out of the Chinese instructor than the Western.

If the concept can't be understood by a Westerner then no amount of Chinese instruction will make it so.

 

Aiyo... 岂有此理？

Liao Rouxin, I know this isn't the topic up for debate, but this thread has gone on too long anyway... Chinese isn't as descriptive as English? The Chinese in Honglou-meng is "weird"? Could that be because you can't read the original? It's literary Chinese and it's very beautiful if you know how to read it. I don't blame you if you can't read the original as most modern Chinese people read a version that is "translated" into baihua--but you just come off sounding ignorant when you make such broad generalizations.

 

No, I've read it in original script and I am not disputing its merits. It's "weird" in that it's very non-standard for a chinese text which makes it more difficult to translate than, say, Sanguoyanyi. As for Chinese being not as descriptive the vocabulary of spoken, and written for that matter, Chinese is significantly smaller than english's. There are more words to describe things in English, just as there are more words to describe things in English than in Latin. I find when I wish to be descriptive and give things detailed characteristics I think more in english, rather than when I am normally thinking and use Chinese in my thought. It's a weird pattern resulting from learning English as a second language but using it more frequently thereafter.

Wo bu qiyoucili, xiexie. Ke shi... wo xiang chi Curry! Aiya. Wo shi guai dan, ma?

But you're right, it may come off sounding ignorant. Forgive me, I'll try to do a better job of explaining myself in the future

 

Ummm....

Please don't try to use Chinese phrases you don't know. "Qi you ci li" is a question/exclamation. Saying "Wo bu qi you ci li" makes no sense. Also, what is a guai dan? A strange egg? Are you trying to say "guai tai," or, possibly, "ben dan"?

 

Didn't Liao say she was Chinese? And speaks Mandarin as her mother tongue? I'm guessing she knows how to speak it...

 

Looks like it TeJitsuDo

 

Singapore...

Umm, if neither of you actually speaks Chinese, then are you really qualified to comment? Just because someone's parents speak Chinese and they learned how to speak and understand basic Chinese as children doesn't necessarily mean they'll understand literary phrases like "qi you ci li." I have met many such people in America and their Chinese is usually mediocre at best. I also asked my Taiwanese girlfriend if there was such a slang phrase as "guai dan" and she said "no, that's just stupid."

 

Onyomi, maybe you could explain a little clearer otherwise you run the risk of sounding a bit like Soggy and im sure you dont mean too.

 

must have read my mind the edit makes it a little clearer.

 

Explanation:

How do I sound like Soggy? I was just pointing out that I disagree with her opinion of Honglou-meng and that the Chinese sentences she was trying to say didn't make sense (except for the one about "I want to eat curry.") "Qi you ci li" is a literary phrase meaning something like "How does that make sense?" or "Where's the logic here?" "wo bu" is like "I don't." Therefore, "wo bu qi you ci li" would mean "I don't how does that make sense." It is a grammatical error. There are a number of Chinese phrases involving "guai" (weird) and "dan" (literally "egg"). "Guai tai" means something like "weirdo" and "ben dan" means "idiot." There are also a number of other insulting words using "dan," but I think these are the two Liao has confused.
"Guai dan," written with a different character can mean "grotesqueness," but I don't think that's what Liao meant.

 

Well, having spoken with Liao, I don't believe she's making up her linguistic ability. I don't know you from a hole in the wall.

 

Hmmm....

Well, since you don't know me personally, Baikaiguy, I guess I must be wrong. Also, I guess you must be fluent in Mandarin since you feel qualified to judge a person's Mandarin ability by speaking with them.

I don't mean to be antagonistic, but there is a big difference between speaking and understanding basic Mandarin and being able to read and write literary Chinese. The writen and spoken languages are probably more divorced in Chinese than in any other language since the spoken varies greatly from area to area, whereas the writen is almost exactly the same. Also, Chinese characters obviously represent meaning and not sound. Combine that with the sheer number of characters that must be memorized and you will realize that just talking to your Chinese parents will not be enough to allow you to read a Chinese novel. It requires years of schooling even for Chinese people growing up in China.

All of this has nothing to do with CMA, btw--I still believe that Mandarin ability, while helpful, is not a prerequisite to achieving high levels of proficiency in CMA. It's just that since I have studied Chinese since high school, majored in Chinese in college, and have studied abroad both in Beijing and Taiwan, I feel relatively confident in my ability. Imagine for a moment that you were doing graduate work in Physics and then you read something incorrect about Physics written on one of these threads. Wouldn't you want to point out the error?

 

The reason you sounded like Soggy was because your first post the unedited version did sound antagonistic in the same way he would make his so called case. It sounded almost like you were telling a chinese speaking person about their own language. Since the first post you have made everything a little clearer. You have also made it much clearer as to why you said it. So we can all understand where you were coming from. Sometimes a post looks different to the manner in which it was meant