Training evolution to today

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Cuchulain, Jan 3, 2006.

  1. Cuchulain

    Cuchulain Valued Member

    I've started this thread as a spin off of the Steven Hayes thread, as it seemed less relevant to the discussion there. I'll repost a comment I made there to this thread to keep some continuity.

    Xenmaster wrote:

    I’ll have a go at this one. I wasn’t training in 1986 but I did start a few years later, so I have been training long enough to see things move along a bit.

    In 1986, what was available to study in the Bujinkan was a single cohesive martial art. It was made up of ukemi practice, sanshin no kata, kihon happo no kata, some hanbo, possibly some kusarifundo and lots of henka. Depending on how good the teacher was – in other words how long they studied this material – there was a tough, useful punching, kicking locking throwing art there. However, the technical understanding of what was being done was quite low, as can be seen by reviewing any of the film footage of the more prominent American and European teachers shot at the time. Most had poor kamae, poor power generation, poor understanding of the use of nagare and timing. There were lots of misunderstandings regarding how and why aspects of taijutsu were performed.

    The limited amount of material available to the first group of westerners to train with Soke meant that there tended to be more repetition of basics and also a fair amount of cobbled on unrelated stuff, such as disproportionate amounts of fitness and stamina training, pseudo militaristic outdoor survival type of training and obviously also eastern spiritual practices.

    The majority of this last type of training did not come from Hatsumi Sensei or his Japanese teachers – they merely wrote about it and westerners cobbled stuff together from other sources (I was there to see some of this – it was great fun but wasn’t really anything to do with Japanese budo.)

    So to sum up, this 1980’s incarnation of the Bujinkan arts had people who were generally quite fit, reasonably skilled at doing some things but had major misconceptions about the context of the skills they were training in, as well as major technical flaws in their movement.

    Despite this, I think the guys who first introduced Bujinkan to the US and Europe did an excellent job. After all, they went to Japan for short periods of time - in some cases only two or three times in total. They didn’t speak Japanese and had to catch what they could in training, and then return home with a pat on the back from Soke for being interested (usually a shodan) to attempt to teach what they knew when they got home. This is very hard. Even today, when most classes in Japan are translated into English, good luck getting a good grip on things!

    The limitations of training in the West in 1986 didn’t matter much to the Japanese, because A) they were already so much better and so far ahead of us and B) because this was only a stage that laid the foundation for the 1990s when much of the technical material that makes up the schools of the Bujinkan was publicly taught for the first time.

    Interestingly, there is a type of nostalgia for this time from some corners - some people thing things were better back then because it was all easier to get a handle on - things were more defined and there was a much smaller base of material to worry about.

    Today, 'the art' seems massive and unweildy - with it's nebulous concepts such as Juppo Sessho and Roppo Kuji. However, to anyone who's been around for the ride, it's obvious that they art has actually always been the same. We know this by looking at the writings of Soke from the 1970s and by looking at how the 'new' concepts are taught through the ryuha. Watch tai kai footage from the 1980s and witness westerners with wooden, staccato movement next the beautiful fluid movement of the Japanese shihan.

    Since 1986, huge amounts of technical material has been taught, including the taijutsu kata of six or seven of the ryuha, along with the weapons kata as well. Someone who stopped meaningfully training in 1986 probably won’t understand most of the technical curriculum of the ryuha (What’s the difference between the different jutsu? How are the ryuha different yet the same? How do you adapt different types of flow and rhythm from the nine schools to different functions?)

    Despite using the term ninjutsu, they probably won’t know any actual ninjutsu – just some ninpo taijutsu. They also probably don’t know what ninjutsu is.

    A major issue is that they will probably be deficient in weapon use. They won’t know meaningfully how to use a bo or a jo, or use any kind of Japanese style sword to any depth, let alone be able to tell you the technical differences between using a kukishin ryu sword, a togakure ryu sword or a shinden fudo ryu sword.

    Other material shared by Soke during the time period being discussed included most of the weapons, such as the yari, naginata, jutte and the teppan as well as technical things such as Takagi Yoshin Ryu’s Daisho Sabaki Gata.

    Since 1998, the focus of the training has specifically focussed on the actual schools themselves, starting with shinden fudo ryu in 1998 and then moving on to the other schools to show some high level concepts that are designed to unify the teachings and codify them into a single art form that transcends the stylistic limitations of the constituent parts.

    These high level ideas are based around the pursuit of pragmatic flows and feelings - extremely hard to describe, even presuming the person trying to describe them understands them in the first place. Hatsumi Sensei no longer really teaches the schools themselves, but rather uses them as vehicles for understanding universal ideas about fighting and personal development.

    So if we trace the development of training in the time period discussed, we have a progression – each phase built on the last. If you stayed in the flow, then you have a very different understanding of martial arts. Someone who has benefited from all this training should be en route to become a tatsujin, or complete human being, at least as regards budo training. They should be able to move totally from an intuitive level with a fluidity and smoothness that leaves no openings for an opponent and in fact is zero. The ability to do this, it seems to me, depends on first gaining a complete technical vocabulary, mastering it and leaving it behind. This is sometimes known in traditional arts as shu ha ri, but Dale’s analogy of the conceptual stages fits into this as well.

    It’s not a flawless system – it presumes that people work through the whole progression – so if someone starts training at a point where they miss the hard training and solid basics stage, then they will have to go back at a later stage and shore up the gaps in their knowledge and ability or accept that they have placed a ceiling on the level they can get to.

    Hatsumi Sensei is, I think, teaching to posterity. Those lucky enough to be close to him and to have been along for the ride are absolutely astonishingly gifted martial artists. Probably some of the bickering that happens here between factions can be explained by the fact that people who have experienced the training these guys offer know with a type of intuitive body intelligence that what they are feeling is phenomenal but can’t really explain why – budo is after all a doing thing, not a talking thing – yet understandably others who don’t know what the fuss is about, don’t get it. The Bujinkan is a horribly Darwinian organisation – we are each responsible for our own training, and even some highly graded people struggle with the expectation placed upon them. Beauty and truth are perceived with the body, not the mind, in my view, and there are shades of this at work when you watch or take ukemi from Soke or the shihan.

    I don't think Soke gives a hoot what Steven Hayes does or Brian McCarthy or any of those guys. They aren't even on his radar they are so insignificant. I am sure he has some personal fondness for old students - heck most teachers do - but it's my experience that Soke cares only about the people standing in front of him in his dojo in Noda, both literally and metaphorically. He doesn't like to see the average student mislead, and will attempt every now and again to steer people the right way as he sees it, but he is really beyond any of this kind of thing. I find that quite reassuring.

    Obviously, this is only my opinion – so it could be nonsense.
     
  2. Cuchulain

    Cuchulain Valued Member

    Next, in response to the thread above, Dale said:

    I feel a little reprimanded - but I think it's totally appropriate. Dale is absolutely right regarding the misleading nature of the way I articulated the ideas above. I can see why writing this this way might create in some ways a misleading impression - because Soke hasn't to my knowledge articulated this, this way. Budo is a doing thing, and hence the problems that sometimes appear in forums, when there is usually no need for them. Budo speaks for itself - it doesn't need me or Dale or anyone else to explain it. :)

    I think everyone who has trained for any length of time will have at some point thought 'I've got it' only to hang their head in shame a few years later at their own arrogance. Right now, I think I'm onto something in my training, but I'd be a fool not to learn from my own past experiences. Instead of labelling it, I'm now inclined to simply enjoy impartially observing it to see where it will lead.

    I think this is the same thing that means that most of the many high ranks in the Bujinkan don't post on discussion boards - they don't see the point, because from a certain perspective there isn't a point, unless you enjoy debate in its own right totally apart from the subject matter. We should all consider ourselves lucky that people like Dale and Michael Pearse and a few others are sufficiently bothered to talk to us, because otherwise what's left is the sort of natural but ultimately unfulfilling arguments that really amount to fleas arguing over who owns the dog. :D
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2006
  3. Dale Seago

    Dale Seago Matthew 7:6

    You shouldn't -- certainly none was intended from my end. :)

    Yup.
     
  4. specourt

    specourt Hero in a half-wit shell

    From the Stephen K Hayes thread:



    This reminds me of a post by Norman a while ago, where he said that when he joined the Bujinkan from the BBD that it took him several years to catch up(my memory of the quote, not verbatim).

    I would be interested from Norm if this was the same situation as Dale's story i.e his training had stood still whilst Hatsumi had moved his students furthur along.

    I would also ask that Greg be strapped into a straight jacket until any mention of the BBD has passed :p :D
     
  5. Lord Spooky

    Lord Spooky Banned Banned


    It wont work.
    We tried it once but had to let him out as he seemed to be having too good a time!


    :D :D
     
  6. Dale Seago

    Dale Seago Matthew 7:6

    So would I, as it did sound similar.

    Good luck with that. . . :rolleyes:

    :D
     
  7. saru1968

    saru1968 New Member

    'I would also ask that Greg be strapped into a straight jacket until any mention of the BBD has passed '

    Restricting the arms is no good, Greg would just type with some other appendage!

    mind you if he got too excitable he would just give himself a shock.

    :)

    :)
     
  8. xen

    xen insanity by design

    this one sort of took on a life of its own...and would you believe i've had to cut it short... :D

    enjoy :)

    ==============================================================

    i get what you mean about the 'i've got it...oh hang on, its gone...oh yes i get now...er do I?...no, confused...ahh now i see' etc etc :D

    someone on here once cautioned against writing down what you think you understand because in the future your outlook will have progressed and what you wrote will lose its validity.

    true...but (IMHO) that is no reason to stifle expression or enquiry....although many aspects of life are more 'feeling' than 'intellect'...the process of capturing the essence of a feeling with the intellect and trasmitting it through words can be a benefical one...if nothing else it gives us something to smile ruefully at when we re-read things few years later and think to ourselves about how naive we all are in our pasts. :D

    (indeed, our species wouldn't have progressed very far if everyone who ever wrote down their thoughts had decided against it in case one day they see things differently)

    that said, it is also clear that as discussions become more involved and the more subtle aspects of concepts are considered, it is difficult enough when people are communicating face to face...let alone accross a discussion forum.

    but my intent with my questions on the SKH thread wasn't to go to any great depth...it was just to widen the discussion to include more than just gossip about the details of SKH's relationship with Hatsumi.

    --------------------------------------

    refering to the the response i got from Cuchulain specifically...

    to summarise how i interpret what you said...(please correct any misrepresentations :))

    1. in the early days, Hatsumi basically seems to have taught people how to fight in a manner which represents the teachings of the art he practices. Correct me if i'm wrong...but i seem to remember somewhere in Hatsumi's writing from the 80's (poss. 'Essence...' poss. 'Ninja Secrets from...' ??) that he was teaching the 'Nine Traditions' as one.

    2. then in the 90's he began to go into more depth about the 'lineage of the movements'...by providing more examples of taijutsu (in the form of kata/kamae) from the seperate traditions which people could take away from Japan and work with in their own dojos. This also served to broaden his students knowledge about the relationships between these traditions. Also by the nineties there was a marked progression in the material relating to traditional weapons...again with reference to the nuances arising from the different schools.

    3. by the end of the nineties, the higher philosphical approaches of each school are considered, in terms (i would guess) of how the unique paradigm of each tradition translates through into the mechanics of the movement (and the attitudes which accompany it) which results from adopting that traditions methods.

    the culmination of this is an understanding of the Bujinkan ideology surrounding the natural movement of the body and most importantly, the physical bodily expression of the art through ones own responses to life.

    ------------------------------------------

    now, what we keep getting dragged back to is what happens when someone stops going to train with Hatsumi...that is basically what about 90% of all the inter-org disagreements are based on.

    The description you give of the way training has evolved since 1986 (an arbitary year...i just thought 20 years was a time period that would be sufficient to make any changes visible) shows that there has been a definate progression of material. Over the years Hatsumi has continued to work dynamically with what he received from Takamatsu and the result has been a continued program of material for his students to work through, practice, develop and internalise.

    Now, as you say, for someone who has been through the last 20 years training, they will have developed a signicant degree of skill, aptitude or whatever other label is most appropriate for demonstrable experience in Hatsumi's art. And here we come to the crux...'some one who has been through 20 years training'...20 years continuous training under Hatsumi produces MAists of a particular calibre...but what of those who have 15 years training with Hatsumi (I believe around the same number of years Hatsumi trained with Takamatsu?) and five years training away from Japan...? It is clear that the 'missing five years' are what is significant...what has our hypothetical practioner spent their time doing?

    I'm going to try and be as clear as I can...a few related issues need to be brought in to help me express this accurately...

    -----------------------------------------------------------

    The contentious issue of Bujinkan rank can be seen more clearly through the description you gave of the last 20years training.

    In some arts, there is only a finite amount of material. So once someone has learnt that material to an objectively measurable level, they have attained their rank. The material available from Hatsumi is not finite. The art is to be seen in the space between the techniques and not the techniques themselves...and as the principles upon which the art seems to be based is more akin to flow than form, endless techniques can be mainfest which serve to illustrate how the form arises in spontaneous response to the changing flows inherent in space.

    In addition to this moment-moment creation of appropriate technique in response to the current situation, there exists the methodology followed by each tradition, which illustrates how aspects of the art have evolved through time according to similar but distinct guiding principles...a sort of ideological time-line which has as its legacy the transmission of principles of movement which carry a signature according to the specifics of their purpose and subsequent development into action.

    This boils down to the fact that as Hatsumi is still very much involved in his own path of ever deepening understanding...so the vehicle he expresses that understanding through (namely his taijutsu) will reflect both his current focus of attention and his continued improvment in his art.

    Now, as he is quoted as saying he doesn't teach...he merely shows...it is natural that anyone who follows his guidance is free to take as much or as little as they choose from his classes.

    How does this relate to rank? Well,there exists a dynamic rank because Bujinkan is a system of knowledge that is continuing to grow. The Bujinkan's 'knowledge base' grows each year as its soke uncovers deeper and deeper layers of meaning, casting new light on familiar concepts and that light refecting to show the nuances which characterise the nine traditions of the Bujinkan system.

    Hence the need for practioners of BBT to be ranked upon the nature of their relationship with Hatsumi and Japan. Quite simple, Hatsumi said himself (in Ben's book, 'Understand, Good, Play' I believe) that those 10th dans who had not trained with him since such and such a date really had the numerals in their ranks reversed and that they were now shodan.

    In a system where the knowledge base is expanding year after year, this is common sense...if a previously ranked tenth dan now has no more knowledge than a shodan in terms of what kamae/kata come from which school, then clearly a tenth dan who has been party to this additional training will 'out-rank' them.

    However, we have a problem. There are people in life who turn up, train and go home. And there are people who practice.

    Cuchulain's post gave a clear indication of what training is available...

    but not everyone will do the same with what they learn.

    Lets go back to the pre-nineties again. Despite the fact Hatsumi did not have then the depth of understanding he now says he has attained...he still had the sokeship to the art.

    And as you say, he taught an effective combat system of locks, strikes throws and fundamentals of weapons. This system was 'Bujinkan'...it may have lacked in the amount of kata being shown...or in the detailed specifics of how movement priciples varied between the traditions...but it was still movement based upon the founding ideas of 'Bujinkan'.

    Now, it seems to me that Hatsumi has spent the nineties sharing deeper insights into the underlying nature of Bujinkan by sharing more specific and specialised details of the make-up of the traditions...and has used this process as a vehicle to bring those people who travel regularly to Japan closer to his ideal of the essence of Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu being that ellusive 'zero'.

    The appearance may change, but underneath it is all still the same...

    Now, assuming that someone aquired a degree of attainment in Hatsumi's Bujinkan, as it was prior to the nineties, what does that actually mean...both back then and now?

    And that is a difficult question to address, because, the endless and dynamic nature of the Bujinkan makes a simple comparison of rank invalid...as discussed above.

    What we have to consider is what someone does with what they learnt. The accusation which is often levelled at those who leave is that they do so through ego or arrogance. But that is not neccesarily the case. It is a sad fact that we so often attack what we don't understand and yet if we make the effort to understand, we often find the differences weren't so great as we first imagined them to be.

    I assume the majority of you are familiar with the term 'reverse engineering'?

    Engineering is essentially the application of a set of fundamental priciples in solving a particualar problem. Usually that solution will require the creation of a unique device. Thus engineering generally manifests as the use of fundametal methodlogies to create something tangible.

    Reverse engineering is the analysis of something tangible to discern the fundamental priciples of its operation.

    Given that the training given in the early days was still 'the same'...namely, the principles underlying the nature of the movement existed then as they do now...then anyone with sufficient awareness of what they are doing could 'reverse engineer' what little had been revealed and come to experientially discover these principles for themselves.

    This is not a fantasy or an immpossibility. Reverse engineering follows a disciplined methodology and acheives tangible results...why else would all sofware licenses explicitly forbid it if something of value could not be uncovered through its methods?

    So, as people have said, the training has gone full circle...indeed it seems to be a myriad of interconnected circles...but underneath all the personalities, the techniques, the kata, the kame, the traditions, there exist the essential principles...there to be found in the spaces between the prationers intent.

    Now, the point was made that the early western instructors didn't grasp the 'technicalities' of what they were doing. But what if they continued to practice...would it not be possible for them to come to see these aspects as they 'played' with the basics they were shown? Clearly, they will not have the same experience with regard to more recently released material from the traditions and they will not have Hatsumi's latest insights to act as a reference point...and those are valuable...however, the question remains, what precludes an individual from developing a viable and evolving appreciation of the priciples due to their own independant efforts?

    The points made about developing a technical understanding and then discarding it are significant...and give rise to a related question...if the goal is to arrive at a point where details are discarded and reliance is placed upon an intuitional and spontaneous responses that transcend technique...then does it matter how broad the knowledge base is that you are going to eventually discard? Is the result of having a knowledge base of 100 kata a significant advantage to having a knowledge base of only 10?

    -----------------------------------------------------

    so, returning to the problems of Bujinkan's dynamic rank...

    it seems to me that there is only one rank in the Bujinkan which can in anyway be viewed as a constant...and that is the rank of godan. It is the only objective test which every practioner at that level and above has openly undertaken and succeeded at.

    All other ranks are subject to the qualifying matters of when they were awarded and the individual in questions current level of connection to Japan...those with the latest info and the most comprehensive training history have the higher perceived level of authority (for want of a better word).

    Now from the perspective of someone who hasn't sat for the sakki test...it is pretty remarkable. That in order for someone to progress through the ranks in a MA, they have to sit in a traditional Japanese posture and dodge a sword cut from behind. Or a shinai or a bokken or whatever. That is something extraordinary...and yet, through Hatsumi's training methods, many people over the years have passed.

    Something to consider...Hatsumi has a much deeper understanding of his art than before...he has much more experience transmitting his ideas to his students...the training in the Bujinkan has evolved etc...all good...

    people in the 70's and 80's passed their sakki tests...with probably alot less direct contact with Hatsumi and during a time when he now says he was not operating anywhere near the level he is operating at today...

    now i am not suggesting the sakki test is the be all and end all...just that it is something tangible that can be used as a metric to gauge the evolution of the system and the validity of the independant work made by those who have not been training continuously throughout the last 20 years.

    also, it is something that is unique to peoples perceptions of both ninjustu and the Takamatsu-den arts.

    --------------------------

    what i am getting at is that to reach the level of godan within the Bujinkan is something that sets those who have passed clearly apart from those who haven't...and how it happens is beyond explanation (certainly by me!)... it isn't a piece of paper or a belt colour...it is unique moment in time that would not be possible without the 'unconscious understanding of the body' which results from the prationers training history and their relationship with soke.

    does passing this test not in some way serve to qualify an individual to work with the tools, as they learnt them, and show some degree of understanding in relation to the essence of Takamatsu-den teachings?

    with direct reference to dales analogy regarding the yon-dan with a 15 year break in training...i am suggesting that practioners at godan and above who have not trained in Japan during the nineties (but have continued working with what material took them through their godan) may lack the knowledge base and direct experience of working with more detailed aspects of the traditions...but that does not mean that they have failed to continue to develop more refined taijutsu, have failed to deepen their appreciation of time, space and intention or have failed to come closer to the essence of the art.

    Their expression may seem to be a departure...and maybe it is...but without mature and objective consideration of the effectiveness of its departure, how can judgement be made on its validity?

    And when we strip all this away, that is what is central to all this isn't it? How effective is what we do?
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2006
  9. Cuchulain

    Cuchulain Valued Member

    Wow, what a long reply. I'll pick out some choice bits as I can't immediately see the main thrust of it. Please excuse me if I don't give the feedback you are looking for Xenmaster.

    I would say that while making the attempt may be beneficial, it’s debatable whether it’s possible to accurately put down in words what any feeling feels like. It’s hard enough to describe much less difficult issues. How for example would you describe the colour green to a blind man? Instead we simply agree that the labels we use to describe that which can’t be seen or touched are close enough to what we understand them to be.

    However, Hatsumi Sensei has said that he thinks any attempt to communicate budo in the written word is largely futile. I’m inclined to agree with him. His writings tend to be about budo, and can give important nudges to people reading them at the right time in their training, but on their own they aren't much use.

    Herein lies the problem with message boards - we can write about budo all day long and not improve our ability to do it one bit. The written word is paramount here, to the detriment of other, more important, methods of achieving understanding.

    I wouldn’t like you to read too much into my post so I’ll lay my cards on the table here. I don’t have strong feelings about what other people do in their martial arts – if someone is happy pursuing martial arts training of any kind, then I am happy for them. Regarding those who opted out of Bujinkan training in the past, I have no strong feelings either. Despite initially starting out in another organisation I don’t look down on what it does today – it’s not for me but it has its strong points. I think it’s a shame that some people who seem to have a strong interest in this tradition may not really understand what it is that they are opting out of, but it doesn’t really affect me.

    Presuming you mean what has our hypothetical practitioner done for the missing five years, they have presumably been practicing whatever understanding they acquired in the previous 15 years. When you stop training under Hatsumi Sensei, you don’t become a bad martial artist, we can see that from practitioners like Manaka Sensei and Tanemura Sensei – you just stop gaining the best possible advice and hence settle for second best, presuming your goal is ongoing development. However people's priorities change, and that's okay.

    Well it’s important not to confuse the exposure of Hatsumi Sensei’s art to the west in the 1980s and the standard to which it was practiced here with the standard in Japan, which has always been excellent. The material I mentioned earlier which formed much of the focus for teaching in the 1980s, 1990s and beyond has actually always been taught in Japan. So, it’s not that the Bujinkan has changed the material it teaches, but rather as westerners became skilled, more was opened up for them to work on.

    We don’t know if Hatsumi Sensei deliberately ‘dumbed down’ his legacy when he first publicised it outside Japan or if, as seems likely to me, he was teaching people from scratch and when most of the people training just didn’t have the conceptual background and physical skills to usefully learn it. Instead he seems to have taught the basic building blocks to his budo, as he was taught them by his teacher when he started training with him.

    Some of Hatsumi Sensei’s oldest written works from the 1970s like Sengoku Ninpo Zukan (Warring States Ninpo) list loads of highly specific information on kata and weapons, along with concepts like Juppo Sessho and more. We know that most of this ‘new’ material is old to the Japanese. Often people who only see the Bujinkan through the Internet have all sorts of weird preconceptions regarding what has and hasn’t been taught.

    Ehh, well, I’m not sure I agree it was ‘the same.’ However, the reverse engineering analogy misses the point. We study martial arts systems so we don’t have to reinvent martial culture. We hope to learn from the experiences of those who have used the ideas to fight with, so that we can learn from their mistakes and not have to spend the same amount of time on them. There is more knowledge in the Bujinkan then any one person could come up with in a very very long time on their own. If ever, actually.

    I know where you are heading with this regarding justifying some people opting out training – but such an argument presumes a value judgement. If you are happy with what you are doing – great! Really, I’m serious. However it’s not the same as what we do anymore. It probably once was, but as time goes on it is ever less so.

    Well I suppose it’s not impossible, but then it depends on the degree to which they understood what they were shown of the basics when they were still actively a student, and many people simply didn’t have good basics. They had to use too much force to get their kihon to work. However, again it doesn’t mean that because someone stopped training that their budo is crap – it might be crap, but it might also be good.

    However, the obvious question is why would anyone want to develop 'a viable and evolving appreciation of the principles' on their own? There is a much easier solution . . . study under a teacher and don't cut yourself off from the stream. If you don't care about improvement and are content to stagnate or go off in some weird direction on your own, well, who am I to judge? But if you want to continue to improve in a specific manner towards a specific goal . . ..

    I have seen video footage of teachers who quit training in the 1980s and 1990s to do their own thing who are just dreadful, really appalling – arrogant, self-obsessed idiots who are really no loss to the Bujinkan at all.

    I’ve also seen footage of people who actually seem pretty good, and it’s a shame they no longer train in the Bujinkan, but it’s important that people follow their heart, so what can you do.

    I think you will find that most Bujinkan practitioners don’t have strong feelings about teachers who leave to do their own thing. It’s only those who misrepresent what they do or attempt to build a reputation for themselves off the back of Hatsumi Sensei that attract grief.

    Finally, I would say that I don’t believe there is any contentious issue surrounding Bujinkan rank – it’s simply a unique ranking system that doesn’t relate to that used by any other art.
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2006
  10. xen

    xen insanity by design

    i'm not looking for anything specific, so don't worry about that :D

    regarding the main thrust of it...appologies if it was a bit 'unwieldy' and this obscures the clarity of what i'm trying to express...this is all stretching my expressive capabilites more than just a little bit :D

    ---------------------
    i agree that writing about the art is not practicing the art.

    But writing about the art is an expression of ones inner self...just like any creative activity is the expression of the spirit that creates it.

    It is a challenge to try to stretch the rational to provide a coherent expression of the irrational...and it is a natural act for a spirit to express itself, through a variety of mediums (not in a 'is anyone here called Martha...i have a messge from the other side' sense :D but in the sense people will paint, write, dance or perform music to express that moment of their spirits journey)...if a subject such as Budo seems beyond the confines of the written word, then the expression of its concepts in some way becomes a more enticing challenge :D

    i share the sentiment underlying the opening sentance above...which is why i am less concerned about chasing down facts about this person or that person and more interested in exploring what aspects of the art do lend themselves to mature consideration...why? if nothing else...it gives my mind something to do while i'm stuck in those mundane times of life where you have to be awake but you don't have to use your brain very much :D

    and it is that comment about 'settling for second best' is which is at the heart of all this for me...you mentioned having to rely upon 'value judgements'...and yet, my own attitude to life (that is influenced by, but not dependant upon my training) is that i am (and have been for over a decade) working to develop an awareness which does not require me to make value judgements in order to direct appropriate action. Essentially to 'de-condition myself' from colouring experience with my own wants and expectations.

    If the prevalent attitude is one which is based on such a clearly defined value judgement...that by not having my training connected to the current training in Japan means what I am engaging my time in is in some way viewed as 'inferior' or 'second best', then I would be remiss in my duty to myself not to try and uncover as much as I can about what there is that is concrete and tangible about this judgement that is made surrounding the training i am involved in.

    Basically it is the apparent need to cast a value judgement onto others surrounding this issue which attracts my attention and arouses my curiosity. This need runs contrary, not to my understanding of ninjutsu or the Bujinkan but to the approach i take to my life...and this is approach is borne of my personal interpretation of the route my life has taken thus far.

    I couldn't give a hoot if people think this or that about what path i choose to take. But i do look to discover what backs up their value judgement and why they felt it neccesary to make it.

    I don't see a problem. Perhaps (or should that be probably?) this is due to my own naivety and inexperience...but i truely don't see why this issue becomes so emotionally charged.

    From my approach to life...to label something as 'inferior' is to put a constraint in place that is not neccesary, because all value judgements are arbitary and relative... and so they become ultimately worthless. Thus to make a decision that something is inferior is to interfere with the direct perception of its nature...and this interference represents a departure from the potential reality inherent in a situation and to impose a set of arbitary conditions around its existence. Being arbitary and independant of the 'thing' in question... the 'thing' may or may not behave in accordance with the preconception surrounding it... the preconception implies direct experience has been replaced by thought about the experience.

    my error... i did not explicity state that i was refering to the increase in material available to western students...
    i'm not trying to be obtuse here... but as I have queried before... assuming Hatsumi passed on faithfully the builidng blocks of the art as were shown to him by Takamatsu... then what stops those building blocks from providing his students with the means to discover the art for themselves? ... just as he discovered the art for himself as a result of his exposure to Takamatsu's teachings?
    i'm not playing with words here, or trying to be 'cryptic'... but my own feeling is that what has been 'taught' is less important than what has been 'learnt'.
    My query here is just what purpose does the 'highly specific information' play?
    my comment 'the same' comes from the idea that the essence of the traditions which form the historical bedrock of the Bujinkan system have not changed in the last 20 years... as you indicate... what is new to the west was not new to the Japanese shihan... thus the training was 'the same' despite the fact the western students lacked the experienced view belonging to the Japanese shihan which allowed them to percieve and practice the art at such a level.
    you sort of get me, but not quite.

    you haven't quite got the purpose of the reverse engineering analogy as i intended it...

    the argument does rely upon a value judgement of sorts...which is why i chose the most universal and objective value i could think of... the succesfull promotion of an individual to the rank of godan.

    because the nature of this promotion involves the sakki test... and the sakki test is almost a 'signature test' of Takamatsu-den ninjutsu... my suggestion is that the attainment of this level of apptitude/level of connection with soke (at the time the student is sat befoe him) shows a sensitivity which qualifies them to have sufficient experience/understanding or whatever to apply the lessons they have learnt effectively and that if they keep working with the material which got them that far, then they will continue to progress... albeit the direction of their progression may seem 'out of sync' with Hatsumi's art... but that does not mean anything other than that it is 'out of sync'... without making a fair assesment of the progressions effectiveness then how can it be valid to label it as this or that?

    To try an clarify the reverse engineering analogy. What would be required to reverse engineer a chemical compound? Well a degree in chemical engineering backed up by some experience of the real world would be a good qualifying metric.

    What would be required to reverse engineer 'kihon happo'? Well, a qualification from the Bujinkan and some real world experience. I am asking why reaching the level of godan and the recieving the label 'shidoshi' doesn't qualify someone to look at the movements they perform and extract the guiding principles from them?

    The other point is that reverse engineering is not about re-inventing the wheel... if anything, at its deepest level it is about connecting with the mind that created the 'thing' under the microscope and understanding why they they arrived at the solution they did given the set of enviromental contraints which served to determine which actions were appropriate in the course of the design. By coming to a place of direct understanding of the rationale which arrived at the given solution to the problem the individual gains significant insight into the nature of the problem and more generally to the discipline of engineering generally.

    My use of this analogy with reference to the movements of the Bujinkan is to suggest that at some level, we can only progress if we, personally experience the priciples for ourselves and understand them sufficiently in order to put them to work for ourselves... the reverse engineering analogy was really a metaphor for a students evolving appreciation of the principles of taijustu through the patient practice of fundamental forms.
    five years ago i had to use more force than i do now to get the same results from kihon... isn't that just an example of taijutsu becoming more refined as experience increases?


    in answer to the obvious question... because some of us suit that path.

    i like to think things out for myself... i like to come to my own understanding about life.

    this doesn't come from arrogance, ego or anything else of that sort, i don't claim to be an expert or to have any superior understanding... but ultimately it comes from a choice i made to pursue the unknown and come to appreciate for myself what is simply not yet known by me and what is simply unknowable... i made that decision before i ever walked into a dojo hoping to learn about ninjutsu... the path i find mysef on is a path that is a direct result of the decisions i have made through the course of my life... and i was wide awake when i made these decisions and fully engaged with the implications these decisions may or not have in the future.

    all i really know is that when someone grabs my wrist, i can turn my body and it is possible for their grip to dissolve... i didn't know that 12 years ago, but now i not only know it, but i can now do it.

    if someone swings a baseball bat at me, i can step inside its arc and it won't hurt me... i didn't know that twelve years ago, but now...

    etc etc...you get where i'm coming from i'm sure.

    i do care about my continued improvement and i don't feel personally that i have 'stagnated' (indeed over the last couple of years what my body has patiently been learning has often surprised me as i have felt progress in terms of fluidity and sponteneity)

    and again, a non-conformist path is inherently viewed as 'weird' and 'goal-less'... but the perceptions of others aren't ever a concern, it is through actions that people become connected...but of course, what guides action if it isn't perception?

    to close, i used the wrong word with contentious to describe the Bujinkan system of rank...perhaps a better choice of word would have been 'unorthodox' ? ;)
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2006
  11. Grimjack

    Grimjack Dangerous but not serious

    There are far too many examples of people who have passed the test, decided to rest on their laurals instead of seeing it as a first step in learning and then go off in really strange directions.

    Go ahead and ask people like Norm and Dale if they think that, years after taking the fifth dan test, they don't need to have their bad habits pointed out from time to time by Soke.

    One thing about the early days that no one has talked about before. If you look at the early films of folks, you see that they move more like karate practicioners than Soke. In the early days, most people started out in a hard style of martial arts and carried their habits into taijutsu. Most of the people teaching and running training groups had very little direct contact with a teacher and had only gotten their training through the occasional seminar. There are still a lot of people that move more like they are doing judo than taijutsu in the Bujinkan.

    I started out in a hard style and I know that unless you are very carefull, those habits tend to come out in what you are trying to do. Most often, you have to have things like this pointed out and corrected over a period of years or weekly lessons. If you lay off of that type of adjustment by a teacher, the habits tend to come out more and more and always seem to be your defualt setting.

    One things we did not have in 1986 was a lot of people who had lived in Japan for years and people who had been to Japan every year for a decade or more. Thanks to people like this, the level of taijutsu now looks more like what Soke is doing than what Chuck Norris does. As I said, there are still holdouts. But in general the level is getting better for those that have stayed in the Bujinkan.

    Another thing that we saw a lot of in the 80s that is a lot less prevelent now is the new age stuff. We know Steve Hayes added on some esoteric Buddhism and tried to pass it off as being from Soke, but he was far from being the most like a wanna- be Jedi knight. Anyone besides me remember all the stuff about Native American shamanistic practices, journies to Manchu Picu by some folks like James Husefelt for spiritual exploration, Vajras being sold by Bud Malmstrom and things like that?
     
  12. Dale Seago

    Dale Seago Matthew 7:6

    Oh hell yes!!!

    Having come to the Bujinkan from about a 14-year background in various "hard" styles, I can definitely relate to that. No longer my "default" setting, but that was a definite challenge for the first few years.
     
  13. Keikai

    Keikai Banned Banned

    No need, any BBD bashing is just advertising for them, better to keep quiet and let them fade into the background....

    On a note though, the difference between 86 & 2006? Hatsumi is not teaching Karate, Brian is.
     
  14. xen

    xen insanity by design

    "The birds did not understand Snowballs long words, but they accepted his explanation, and all the humbler animals set to work to learn the new maxim by heart. FOUR LEGS GOOD, TWO LEGS BAD, was inscribed on the end wall of the barn, above the Seven Commandments and in bigger letters. When they had got it by heart, the sheep developed a great liking for this maxim, and often as they lay in the field they would all start bleating 'Four legs good, two legs bad! Four legs good, two legs bad!' and keep it up for hours on end, never growing tired of it".

    George Orwell - Animal Farm
     
  15. Lord Spooky

    Lord Spooky Banned Banned

    "All animals are equal but some animals are more equal than others."


    :D
     
  16. Peaceful Tiger

    Peaceful Tiger Happy Member

    Animal Farm : George Bernard Shaw ;)
     
  17. xen

    xen insanity by design

    again...why does not training in Japan have to equate with 'resting on laurels'?

    not continuing to travel to Japan means just that...that someone doesn't travel to Japan.

    It doesn't mean that the person's brain or body stops working at that point.

    And it doesn't mean that by deciding not to go to Japan the person is operating from any sense of a maligned intent.

    I could not go to the dojo for five years and would still have countless things which my instructors have given me to work on and develop... as long as i had a willing training partner, i could keep training and developing, and because i wish i had more time to concentrate on the stuff they give me to work with, in some ways i would relish the opportunity to sit a bubble and really consolidate what I have been taught so far. Because within a month I will have even more to digest.

    And if I returned to the dojo after a five year absence... of course things the things which i see will be strange and unfamiliar... and of course my instructors will see how i have worked with the material and probably taken it in a direction that was not their intent... but that doesn't mean that it will be all be useless or wrong... as long as i work within my level of understanding and don't deceive myself about what i think i know or understand then I will be staying faithfull to what they have taught me.

    Of course i will make mistakes during my hypothetical departure, of course their will be times when i need the counsel of my instructors and of course their will be elements i introduce which were not their before and as such, have not been 'properly' evaluated. But despite these negatives, i would also have the chance gain immensely on other levels and in other areas, provided of course, i continued to put the hours in and continued to stay open to the lessons and guidance that appear in the world around us on a daily basis.

    I appreciate your point about people grim, ... but i am not concerned with tales about people... i am looking to get my head round the art, not its practioners. The logic I employ in posts such the ones earlier on this thread is purposefully applied as a tool to uncover more about just what qualifies as defining principles in the art and how these principles can be applied to the business of developing taijutsu. It isn't intended as a means to highlight trends in group behaviour and then guess at what inner mechanisms are guiding that behaviour with a hope of finding a single answer which applies equally as a blanket generalisation to all members of the group.
     
  18. Grimjack

    Grimjack Dangerous but not serious

    Well, if you are so advanced that you feel that no one else in your country can still teach you something, Japan is the one place that you can go to where there are people that know more than you about Bujinkan.

    And there are people I know who have left the Bujinkan and gone to train with other arts to continue to improve themselves. That is not resting on their laurals.

    But those that continue to claim to teach ninjutsu or anything related to the Bujinkan and yet do not seek out any instruction in what Soke is doing can't be said to be doing anything other than resting on past accomplishments instead of working for future growth in Taijutsu.
     
  19. mpearce

    mpearce Valued Member

    I am reading all the really good post that have begun here. As I read them I will add a few points of things I have learned and seen. One thing is that Sensei has said that it took him over 15 years to figure out and BEGIN to understand what Takamatsu-sensei taught him. I will agree with this for me as well. I have been here for 15 years now training with Sensei. And I am just now figuring out what he has been teaching me. It has taken me this long just to learn how to punch (and I'm not joking). Only this year when i was teaching a seminar in Canada did I realize that i can only now begin training and teaching myself from what I have learned.
     
  20. Cuchulain

    Cuchulain Valued Member

    I think Grimjack can be rather enthusiastic sometimes in his arguments, but in this I agree with him. If someone stops taking instruction, they are opting for the second best path presuming they actually want to get better. It seems more likely to me that the reason people stop actually being a student first, teacher second, is that it's nicer to have people hang on your every word and it's not so nice to have your shortcomings pointed out to you. Some people just can' take correction and would rather do their own thing then admit they don't have the answers.

    There is of course, nothing really wrong with that, presuming the people in question are happy. Personally I wouldn't be. All of the skilled Bujinkan Shihan I know of are students first, teachers second. There's no way you can rationalise it so that it makes more sense to build on what you have rather than continue to study under instruction, unless you are settling for second best.

    Again there's nothing wrong with that, but there are of course consequences.

    (PS Hi Mike! Good to see you contributing here. See you in training next week.)
     

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