Training despite extreme shyness or how to handle "difficult" students

First: I’m not sure if that’s the correct topic for my post. In case it’s wrong here I’m sorry and would ask, that a mod might move it to the right topic.

Second: My sincere apologies, that there is a wall of text following! I will try and look for some passages to shorten.

With that out of the way – to explain my problem properly, I’m afraid I have to digress a little bit first.

I am... let’s call it “socially challenged” (mainly because it sounds better then “socially inept” ).
Whether you call it “extremely shy”, “social phobia” (someone hinted in that direction) or anything else doesn’t really matter.

I try to make it as short as possible: This shyness (how I hate this word) gives me trouble on a rather regularly basis.
It’s worst during the warm-up, as soon as it’s gymnastics and co, where everyone stands in a big circle.
It’s like a scenario out of a bad horror-movie at times.
I’m totally stressed then and have some “blockades” in my head, that keep me from joining in the exercises.

Sometimes everything goes really well, sometimes not so much.
The JJ teacher can handle that awesomely. Not sure how he can bear to have student like me without choking me to death and making it look like an accident, but he does ^^

The acute problem: It got worse during the last weeks.
I have no idea, how it came to that, because nothing really changed.

In JJ (which is my favorite; I started to look at HKD and Judo as supporters, to get better in JJ. Suits me just fine so far), it’s most frustrating.
The teacher tries everything, is very patient and at the same time kinda pushy when needed (it’s hard to explain. But he knows better then I do, how far he can go and push me, without actually “breaking” me. It’s fascinating and scary at the same time ).

The first time it got worse then before, I know what triggered my problems: We were more people than usual and a new guy as well.
Stuff like that stresses me out. I know that. The teacher knows that. His partner knows that.
Long story short: He shouted at me couple of times, one of which was a bit louder and ended with a “or you can leave the mat”.
To be fair: He was right!
And to be even fairer: It worked.
After the rebuke I stayed on the mats, I did everything I was supposed to and we were joking a few minutes later and he was helping out as usual.

The next session went similar.
The warm-up didn’t work out at all though (two rebukes there alone). One included very loud yelling and this time ended with “if you leave now, you don’t have to come back (that day)”.
Given that I yelled at him first there (which was a first and will never ever happen again!), he was right again.
I was disrespectful from the start, so... yeah. It sucked, but he was right.
Actually I would have kicked my ass off the mat for that day and told me, that in the beginning of the next session I can come and apologize in front of everyone.
But again I stayed (which is a good thing, by the way. A few months ago chances were, that I would have left) and the rest went rather well.

Again, because it’s really important (since I make him sound like an as***e):
I like him, he likes me.
I respect and trust him and he respects me.
He’s an awesome teacher, I learned tons from him already and I am looking forward to the future. I could tell way more stories on how well I “function” around him and how he works with me, so I can make progress not only in JJ but also on a social side.

But since my problems during training seem to be getting worse I get annoyed with myself to no end.
So after that very long (very sorry for that) and boring (sorry for that as well) story, I’m curious on how other people handle moments like that (I mean, I can’t be the only one with problems like that, even if the scale might be higher then usual)?
If you’re “afraid” of doing some exercise (because you know everyone will laugh at you, despite it never happening in class so far), how do manage that?
Or is it actually such an individual problem, that hardly anyone can relate to it? Or at least has seen it in his/ her classes as well (whether regarding oneself another student doesn’t matter)?

Or to the teachers here: How do you handle people like that (and please, please don’t just say “therapy”. I’m rather functional and well all in all, just a little “different” )?
Or what do you expect from them, what they should do?

Before anyone goes: Talk to your teacher – I have done that already, and I will again. Actually, I talk to him rather often about these problems. Or write something down, so I don’t have to stutter for half an hour for something he can read in a minute.
He’s already been incredibly helpful (his co-teacher as well, by the way), he even assures me, that he’s helping willingly and will keep doing so.
Which is, obviously, awesome!

I’m just curious about the opinions and ideas of other people as well ^^

PS.: Sorry for any mistakes regarding the language! English isn’t my first language, so maybe you can find forgiveness in your hearts

 

Does this affect other areas of your life as well?

And more importantly, have you considered going to counselling? A good psychologist will both help you explore the roots your social phobia (if it really is that extreme), and will be able to offer you techniques to help overcome it.

 

Acceptance is the first step. Accept that other people exist, then consider them. Do you really think they care about you when they're busy working hard as well? No! They're too busy trying not to make an ass of themselves either! The difference is that they don't care as much if they do.

Why should you care if someone laughs (which they probably won't)? What is the worst that can happen? It's totally forgotten about by the time the next exercise rolls around.

I know it's not helpful, but I can't say I've ever had anxiety about looking a cool. I've fell down shadow boxing so many times, with both my feet up in the air! Just laugh and forget about it

See a counseller also.

 

Knwoing what my students can and cannot do is part of my job as a teacher - this includes social anxiety and other confidence issues. One reason I like to keep my classes relatively small is because the group also helps each other along and no one gets "lost in the mix"

That said, it is also something that you shoudl seek outside assistance for. If people break a leg or pull a muscle they go to the Doctor...the same should apply if you feel "injured" mentally. Friends can help as a peer support group obviously, but a good counsellor is a must

 

Even when attractive women are around to see you fight?

I seem to remember you saying something about that...

It might be negligible by comparison, but I think we can all feel some social anxiety, given the right circumstances.

It takes some people a long time to get into the spirit of "we can make mistakes in training so we don't have to for real", and some people never entirely manage to let go of their ego in training.

 

I was going to ask if you'd ever been diagnosed with Asperger Syndrome or similar disorders along the spectrum but you seem keenly aware of the context of others actions and words in relation to your behaviour in a social setting...almost too aware.

To expand on panderso's question, does this problem manifest itself the most when you are performing synchronised physical activity in a group setting (i.e. doing a sport that requires you to coordinate and time your movements with those of others in an an environment where things move fairly quickly) ?

I have a son who is quite agile with excellent body mechanics/spatial awareness and coordination, yet put him in a 'team' environment and it all goes straight to hell. He shuts down and activities that he was previously capable of doing with blindfolds on becomes an unconquerable juggernaut.

Ironically, MA is the sole competitive sport that he will participate in. He didn't fancy BJJ but enjoyed TKD and loves boxing.

Sorry, what was the MA that you do again? Judo? Jujitsu?

As others have said, please seek medical advisement. You're condition may respond very favourably to behavioural modification therapy.

It would be a shame if you suffered through this needlessly.

 

Thanks for the answers!
Let me try and work through them.

@counseling: I don't want to go that road.
I prefer solving my problems alone (well, more or less ) and so far it worked rather well.
And I don't feel comfortable with that approach.
(Yep, tried that an eternity ago, so it's not that I think it's a bad thing. It's just not my cup of tea for the moment)


Now the more individual answers:

I work in an honorary capacity (I think that's the right words anyway), and for that I kind of switch between a "me" and a "duty me".
But I don't think it's too unusual, to switch a bit between how you behave private and "on work".

Personally I don't really think that it's as extreme as a phobia. One or two people hinted that way, but to be honest, I think I would be off worse then I am, if it were the case.

Actually I am aware of that.
I'm not a fool (I know it wasn't meant like that though )
I know it's an irrational thing and it actually got better, compared from when I started.

I actually even know that no one would laugh (or when they do it's not in a mean way; otherwise the teachers would intervene anyway).
Especially in JJ they're a bunch of nice people that even make me feel welcome.

And I can assure it's not about looking cool. I'm one of the most uncool people ever
It's a bit weird: I usually don't care what people think about me, I just totally hate being laughed at and feeling like a fool.
I know the problem is in my head, that's why I made it a working ground and agreed with the teacher, that he totally should kick my ass - I take advantages out of it to no end, even though I might not like it in that very moment.

And the problem is only a big issue, during the warm-ups in a circle and stuff like that.
When we do drills and stuff and learn new techniques it's a little problem, but nothing I can usually handle by myself (there were one or two cases, where I had trouble due to the techniques, but normally that's not the case).

I'm absolutely sure, that my teacher would agree here.

He has proven over and over again, that he knows how far he can push me and didn't overdo it once.
That's one of the reasons why I started trusting him, I think.

I called it "demanding and encouraging" (which, by the way, is the only thing I can think of, that sounds better in German, "fordern und fördern" ).


I might have made it sound worse than it actually is, because I was at least trying not to write a novel here .
I mean, it is a problem during training, I won't deny that, but it also got better since I started (HKD roughly 18 months ago; JJ in January, so I'm still a newbie), so that even I can see little steps in the right direction.
Which usually is different, if you're the person in question; I think everyone here knows that. But it also shows me, that I must be doing something right.

It's not like I run through my life, always being scared of everything.

I just got thinking about it more, because the last couple of weeks went out of hand (training-wise), and I don't understand what happened there (so far this week went fine, nearly as it was before. So it might have gotten better already! Still have no idea what might have triggered the problems during the last weeks )

 

Two answers ninja'ed their way, while I was writing, so sorry for the double post, but I thought it better then just to edit the other answer.
Won’t happen again, I hope.

I was told the same before and thought it pretty interesting.
Had me thinking before, and I came to the conclusion (for me), that it’s all about being outside of the familiar comfort zone (yeah, pretty obvious, I guess).
I actually went to another club for a trial training twice, just to push myself out of my comfort zone (well, and to see if I might join there; still thinking about that ^^).
It was as stressful as it was interesting.

To be fair, I don’t think it’s about ego.
Not in my case anyway.
I do make mistakes during training, and even though I don’t like (who does? ^^) that alone isn’t a problem. I get corrected, I try to make it better and so on.
If you “challenge” the teacher (I mean in jokingly way here, not in a serious way), than he takes you to the ground and ties a knot into you, and I don’t feel like an idiot then.
During randori I tap out all the time and don’t mind at all. In the end I learn out of it ^^


@belltoller
Without trying to quote you I try and answer that way, or I end up quoting nearly everything

I was diagnosed once with an adjustment disorder. At the time I read about it and according to what I found, it’s supposed to be more of a temporary thing.
I also got antidepresants (SSRI) for a short while, but I fought the depressions successful, I think.
And since I started doing MA, I’m all in all pretty well (sure, sometimes I feel down, like everyone does, but not the same way, I did when I got the SSRIs).

The problem mainly manifests itself during warm-up exercises, when you stay in a big circle. And then mostly when it’s stuff I suck at doing or if it’s new
Sometimes during kihon-like exercises as well, but there it gets better pretty fast, once I have the idea down (well, except one thing, but there the problem is only in my head and just taking a bit longer ).

Oh, and I do Hapkido, Japanese Jiu Jitsu (the name giving of that is a bit weird in Germany; I think it’s just Jūjutsu in English) and Judo (only once a week; it’s the co-teacher from JJ who gives that class, so I feel as comfortable as I can there).
(I think of adding Ajukate (a German creation) to the mix; mainly because it’s basically the same as Jūjutsu, and I want it want it, just like Judo, to support it and get better there).
I made Jūjutsu my "main subject", and the other arts accommodate it very well. And it's the only way, to train more the only twice a week.

Again, I might have made it sound worse, than it is
Sorry, if that really is the case!

 

Didn't mean "cool", it was a typo. I meant fool



@David, I don't think they are comparable. It doesn't interfere in my day to day life. I also didn't feel as worried the second time. This situation is very consistent.

OP: we pretty much all said the same thing. I've never had regular anxiety attacks, but I've had depression before, really really bad depression. So I imagine what I'm saying to you about not being worried is probably the same as when people told me "why are you upset? Just be happy!" Which is pretty infuriating.

Best of luck anyway, I hope you change your mind and see a counseller, it helped me immensely.

 

Sure, I was just pointing out that we all have varying degrees of anxiety, triggered by different contributing factors. Some are fairly easy to get over, some are not.

 

Latikos:

The fact you say it is improving (even if you have a bit of a relapse from time-to-time) is a good sign.

Keep going

 

Great, now I feel like a dork lol

Also I’m not sure about the anxiety-attacks... It’s a bit difficult to explain, but I don’t think that what I experience are anxiety attacks in the classical way.
I think I would suffer more then I actually do, if that were the case.

When I get too much of these blockades, chances are it’s my own fault, because I think too much about it which can result in obsessing about it.
One of the HKD-coaches told me to think less.
Which in its core is an aweseome idea, I’m just not sure how to do that.
It’s like telling someone not to think about blue elephants, dancing in your tub wearing a tutu
I will work on that as well though, since he had proven to me, that it can work (during kick-training; barking to me what to do, so I didn’t had a chance to think).

And to point it out again: These problems aren’t interfering too much with my day to day life.
(“too much”, because I admit sometimes I need to force myself to ask some stranger a question, like directions and stuff like that; but nothing major)


@David Harrison:
Thank you!


I think, the relapse might have had a bigger influence on me, then I expected possible. Or might care to admit.

The more time goes by and after another talk to the teacher... I think, I might have overreacted (it's still bugging me, of course, but on a more objective sight, it might not have been as bad as I thought it was or as it feels... Will talk to the teacher again tomorrow; already asked him if I could)
The yelling on these two training sessions was something entirely new and that he wouldn’t let me go outside (essentially only to hide a while and maybe hit a wall ) as well.
Even though, my bigger problem were my “blockades” and not the rebukes (they weren’t great, of course, but I’m totally willing to take a punishment if I “earned” it), it was a new and unexpected kind of stress.
I’m still a tiny bit proud though, that I really didn’t leave but stayed and kept training

EDIT: Maybe I should have pointed out something else at some point, because it's kind of important (hopefully it was taken for granted in the first place): I really like going to the training sessions and would go more often, if there was the offer.
I don't have have to force myself to actually go there, because everything there is bad and difficult - quite the contrary. I really love going there, learn tons of stuff (aside from MA) and profit of every single session!


I’m still interested in some perspective of teachers, and other students as well, about this topic in general.
What do you expect people to do? Do you get annoyed by students like that (or how much do they annoy you)? What is the worst a student like that could do? Or the best? Does someone actually “like” haveing students like that, because is’s something you can help with? Do you have the wish to just kick them out? Or actually told them, to not come back, because it’s not the right thing for them? Do they, in your opinion, stop your own progress? In case you have students like that - do you allow them to stand aside from the others and hide or do you make them join the others? If you’re a student yourself - do you still (like to) train with them (, given that techniques aren’t that much of a problem)? Anything you can think of.

I like to at least try to understand things like that, from both perspectives. So maybe I or someone else can take something out of thoughts about it

 

it sounds to me like you really need the help of a clinical psychologist, not a martial artist. That's not a jab, just a suggestion. Social anxiety can be a symptom of a lot of disorders, many of which have effective treatment or symptom mitigation techniques. Please do yourself a favor and see a professional who is qualified to help you.

 

I do appreciate the concern!
Just to point it out once again: My everyday life is hardly limited, if at all!
I don't feel comfortable around strangers, I admit that, but that's not that unusual (at least emanating from what other people tell/ write) and in most situations I function rather well.

It's mainly a problem during certain exercises (again: learning with a partner isn't much of a problem. I get nervous, when the teacher watches, yes, but that do the others as well ^^).

I don't think, that it's as serious, as some people here seem to think (which is fine with me; my description might be simply bad or overly dramatic).
If it were as bad, I would suffer way more, than I actually do (as least, from what I read about it, people who suffer social phobia, seem to have way more serious problems, then I do. Actually I think, compared to most of them, I got off lucky with only being shy in a weird way).

I might try to find a better way to describe my actual problems, now that I have found another perspective to it and to explaining it.
And in addition maybe I need to work more on my English then I thought

Thanks for the answer though! I appreciate that!
Edit: Oh, and again for the psychologist: Last time I went to one, she essentially told me, that I might be a bit weird, but not in a clinical way (as I said, was there a while ago. Adjustment disorder and depression. And the depression is (luckily!) gone; I don't think I had a very bad case of them, compared to others).

 

You are deriving an intense amount of anxiety from your class. You experience it during 'circle-time' more intensely because its occurring in a larger group setting which triggers the psychosomatic responses; which, reading between the lines in your case, seems to be an exaggerated flight response.

You should realise that Adjustment disorder is on the spectrum of related maladies including social anxiety disorder, PTSD, Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder, Agoraphobia, Acute Stress Disorder and GAD. They are all anxiety-related issues they are often co-morbid with each other and the lines separating one from another can be quite blurry.

Adjustment disorder is a kinder, gentler form of PTSD - loosing a job, a girl-friend; some sort of non-traumatic, non-life threatening life event - and you are correct, it is usually short-term and again, you are correct - that's not what the issue is here.

I gather that essentially you started the thread in order to find MA instructors here who could aid you in interpreting your own instructor's words and actions in response to your ... circle-time indiscretions... for hidden meaning - for clues as to where his thoughts lie with respect to your self-perceived ineptness. You admire and are in awe of your instructors and wish to please them greatly, but you feel that their ways are inscrutable and hope to find a guide of sorts here. Your seeking some sort of affirmation that "even you" could be tolerated by them.

I don't think anyone here could nor should try to reassure you on that front. That is not what healthy support is about. Even if members here did try to provide that affirmation, having a son with severe anxiety disorders, I can assure you that it would only feed the need for more reassurance and more.

Again, I can only implore you to seek qualified therapy. Anxiety-related disorders are the one area where sound CBT has been shown to work very extensively as an evidence-based treatment.

The techniques that a therapist would show you are going to be very, very similar in nature to the one's members here would have you do in order to "loosen-up" ahead of your class exercises, anyroads.

Do wish you success in finding satisfactory resolution to your travails.

 

@belltoller

For Pete's sake, you make me wonder how bad my English might be after all - was a long time ago, I needed to think so much to understand what I was just reading

I actually don't need anyone to explain to me what my teacher does.
I just asked him and he told me why he did what he did ^^
It's way easier that way then to have other speculate about it.

See above.
What these two teacher do isn't inscrutable (learned a new word here, yay ), because I just asked.
And I know that they don't have any personal problems with me, but actually like to teach me, because I'm a eager to learn and always there (their words).

And another new word lol
Anyway: Thanks very much.

Among other reasons (one of them probably being ****ed off by myself, which is never a good reason for a thread, so: Sorry about that) I started that thread, to see if there is something I can work on myself (for example I kept and keep working on jabs, punches, hooks and the such to improve the technique at home, so I feel less like a dork when I do them in class. Nothing special here, I know, but it helps).
Or to see, how other instructors handle students that are difficult and maybe take something out of that as well.
(Stupid example: If instructor XY offers his student a piece of chocolate after every class he doesn't screw up, and that works - I would think about it and see, if there is something I can work with and take advantage of. Maybe I don't like chocolate, so I would change that to the newest of episode of the TV show I love so much and really want to watch again!)

And not wanting to blow my own trumpet - but so far I actually think I'm doing okay (sure it could be better, and probably even would be with professional counseling, but right now, that's not what I want. I walked that road before, so it's not that I think therapists are a bad thing or anything, but for the moment I don't have a big enough problem, that I think that's a must right now.).
Compared to the beginning of this year I already made quite some improvements (despite there being relapses), I even went to a MA seminar with one of my teachers, where I didn't know anyone or anything of what we did there (only new weapon techniques, which I hardly ever did) and I did well there.

I'm afraid my posts don't exactly fit my situation good enough. Might be a language problem or just bad explaining. It's difficult to tell.
But I have the feeling when people here try to "see" me, they see a total wreck, that can't live a half-normal life.
But I essentially do. With some minor struggles here and there, but rather normal. In my honorary work I "work" with kids and am part of the guidance team (is that the word? The team, that has to work out what to do with the kids in play groups or for day-trips and such) and that actually works out well.

Another trainer of mine (I have like 7 of them; schools in Germany work a bit different then in the US for example, so in HKD alone are 5) told me to try think less, and just do.
Like "meditating through movement", so that's the next thing I will be trying out and working on ^^

 

Fair enough! No one sees you as a wreck. Misunderstanding and being misunderstood increases with the length and scope of our posts.

The smarter one's here on the forum here keep their posts simple and to the point; they also have less propensity to read things into others posts, which is something I keep reminding myself to emulate - but to no avail.

We must keep trying though

 

I really, really try to keep my posts short
I'm just utterly useless in that

I think my problem in that regard is, that I at least try to explain things as best as I can, but for me that usually means that the text gets longer.
That's not only in English a problem, but in my native language as well.

And given that we can only work with the written word in forums, misunderstandings can happen easier, compared to a real life talk, so I try to be clear or ask again if I'm not sure about something.

 

At my old dojo, we used to put new students one-on-one with a black belt or upper kyu rank in the class. Get the new person comfortable with a few basics. That has had a tendency to break the ice a little, and allowed new students to ease into training with the rest of the class at a reasonable pace.

 

I actually prefer training with higher grades myself too.
I learn better just by watching what they are doing.
And (for the moment) I feel generally more comfortable with them (which is probably a coincidence).