Traditional wing chun vs modern wing chun?

Discussion in 'Kung Fu' started by Bubble99, Aug 28, 2016.

  1. Bubble99

    Bubble99 Valued Member

    I did some reading on that school and I know where some members are coming off say it is terrible that wing chun.:eek::eek:

    It is Sifu Klaus Brand is Founder of the International Academy of WingChun (IAW) and Grandmaster of WingChun:woo::woo:

    From what I read he modified it to hard striking and thus some of the people saying it not proper wing chun cause it not soft but hard.:eek::eek::eek::eek:

    http://wingchunus.com/instructors/sifu-klaus-brand/
    https://www.facebook.com/LifestyleCenter/posts/989185277769420

    http://wingchunus.com/locations/berkeley/
    http://wingchunus.com/locations/

    From what I understand reading it is Leung Ting but he modified and he set up is own that is bit different.:star::star:

    There are number schools he runs or hosts Berkeley, California, Atlanta, Georgia. And some others in and around the Bay area.


    Here are what some people say about it and thus it not proper wing chun.









    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxYQjS6LkMg"]Grandmaster, Sifu Klaus Brand - International Academy of WingChun - YouTube[/ame]

    So it seems some people think it too hard:bang::bang::bang: and it should be soft wing chun that the way he is doing it is way too hard.


    For what ever reason he believes it should be hard.:star::star:

    And this.



    So to me that knows nothing about wing chun it looks like video had way making it look good even to fact lot of want he does is not proper wing chun.
     
  2. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Most important is to keep training. So by not fighting, what do you mean? I can understand if you mean not competition, but in training you could still be knocking out and/or spilling blood with your training partners, correct?

    So how do you feel about heavy contact with bruises, spilling blood, and with the occasional near knock out in training? Is that okay with you?

    Anyway I found an MMA type training for you. GJJ is for self-defense:

    I quote: "Jiu-jitsu is the art of self-defense, not for fighting. I fight to prove I cannot lose against a bigger opponent."

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfdFvq0bRcQ"]Royce Gracie Believes Jiu-Jitsu Competitions Don't Help With Self Defense - YouTube[/ame]

    It took me about two minutes to find this video. Seems that it isn't that hard to find examples of self-defense in MMA related schools.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2016
  3. Kurtka Jerker

    Kurtka Jerker Valued Member

    Bubble:
    You cannot become even mediocre at navigating violence (which is the medium through which martial arts forges people) without actually navigating violence. If you abhor fighting and intent to avoid it in practice, martial arts is not for you.
    Having cage fights isn't mandatory in MMA but actually doing what you practice for real is. That's why it consistently produces superior martial artists. That's why it's the yardstick martial arts are measured against.

    I acknowledge that actual fighting is a small part of self defense but I think it's a little disingenuous to minimize the training owed to surviving in the deep end of the pool. Actually being comfortable in or at least familiar with real violence is important and not many avenues do that better than full contact combat sports.

    And regardless, MMA classes won't teach you any fewer non-combat skills than Wing Chun. You need a specialty class or personal study to cover that either way.
     
  4. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    No respectable MMA gym will force you to fight (compete) either.

    People that want to fight will be helped on that path and be made to work for it; those who don't, don't.
     
  5. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I cracked up laughing because fights don't end after one hit like that. After hitting, they need to be ready to hit again and establish control, or be ready to be grabbed and hit back by the opponent.

    Also an indication of their training. If they really worked like that all the time, they would have the bruises to prove it. It's like the hands of a farmer compared to an office worker. Sure the office worker can go to a farm and work, but you can tell by his/her hands that they are not a full time farmer.

    With that said, it is EXCELLENT Wing Chun. The reason is that this is the type of training partner you want to test out Wing Chun. The hard blocks like that work in confined spaces. Where they don't work is when the opponent has room to feint and fake you out. In close quarters you can hard block in a arc and the opponent hurts themselves trying to hit you.

    If your Wing Chun can easily defeat these hard blocks at close range, then I think you have developed something that works.
     
  6. Bubble99

    Bubble99 Valued Member

    So you are saying this wing chun is better for close fighting space like on the city bus, elevator, small room,hallway, home invasion so on. Where you have little room to move around? But out in public with open space and room to move around other wing chun would be better?
     
  7. Bubble99

    Bubble99 Valued Member

    Some people want to learn self defense but are not interested in fighting.Some people just want learn the type of art style and understand the art better. Like this wing chun vs this other wing chun.

    So if that wing Chun school are into fighting and competition than that wing chun school may not be good.
     
  8. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Well it could be, but that wasn't what I was trying to say in my last post.

    I was saying that HARD blocks work in confined spaces. Like the hard blocks in the video "Grandmaster, Sifu Klaus Brand - International Academy of WingChun - YouTube".

    Then I extrapolated that if I trained in Wing Chun that a training partner that used those hard blocks would be a really great training partner to help me develop something that really worked. I really meant training in Wing Chun push hands/trapping, so sorry I was not clear.

    To summarize, what I meant was that if I trained in Wing Chun push hands, testing it out against someone using hard blocks is something I should want to do on a regular basis to verify that I am learning something that is practical.
     
  9. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    If someone is purely interested in the technical aspects and body mechanics, in the same way that someone might be into physical theatre, that is all fine and good.

    Where people get into problems is when they think they can get good at fighting without ever doing anything that looks like fighting.
     
  10. Bubble99

    Bubble99 Valued Member

    So in your wing chun you like the soft blocks over the hard blocks? You find the hard blocks not that good? Have your school train in both or tried mixing the two together? Where one goes at it with hard block and the other with the soft block?
     
  11. Bubble99

    Bubble99 Valued Member

    I guess it comes down to does the school train in different fighting ranges? If you always training in the read zone like the above poster said than that all you can do than. :cry::cry::cry: Well this is well okay for say a city bus, elevator, small room, hallway, home invasion so on where you have very little room if any to move.

    In the open out side you may have the go in and hit and move out really fast than go in and hit and move out really fast and so on. And more different fighting ranges out side.

    But yea in boxing ring or MMA people are always moving and you have the different fighting ranges.
     
  12. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    The closest to Wing Chun training I've ever done is some JKD. I train in a different martial art. However, I will try to answer your question from a more general martial art view.

    Yes I've trained and we do train in both hard and soft blocks. In principle there is no difference in either hard or soft blocks because the goal should be to protect vitals at all times. Fundamentally there is no difference between hard and soft blocks either because both should be done with relaxation. The difference is in target. On striking, against a hard target, use a soft weapon and to strike soft targets use a hard weapon. When defending, use a harder weapon to defend against a hard strike and use a softer weapon to defend against a soft strike.

    So let's say that I'm training trapping/push hands and my goal is to reach softness. I want training partners that can come at me with hard weapons and soft weapons so I can test out if what I'm doing really works. IF EVERYONE always attacks in the same way, I only am testing things out against others that attack one way, this can lead to a false sense of security. So I want partners that can attack me and defend against me in different ways.

    I'll see if I can find a video that might illustrate the hard and soft part.
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2016
  13. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Yeah train different ranges, but that is more a principle. In your actual training, you can specialize, such as BJJ specializes in ground fighting. What is important is experiencing the different ranges so remove bad habits and avoid surprises.

    For example, if only train trapping with the hands and arms, I might be totally surprised by someone kicking me in the leg. So really what I'm saying is don't get surprised if someone attacks or defends in a way that is different than how you train your specialization.
     
  14. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    How can you "test" your MA skill if you just want to learn "self-defense" but you don't want to learn "fighting"?
     
  15. Avenger

    Avenger Banned Banned

    That would be "The Art Of Fighting Without Fighting".
     
  16. Kurtka Jerker

    Kurtka Jerker Valued Member

    Well, that and people expecting any substantial understanding of a martial art without actually experiencing it. Simply miming the motions of a martial art leaves you with little actual insight and it shows in the crazy fantasies you see espoused by people who practice that way.
     
  17. Matt F

    Matt F Valued Member

    Fair enough.
    Not what I was thinking or implying.

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prxnGjKjxoo"]Muhammad Ali knockout Sonny Liston in Slow Motion - YouTube[/ame]

    Everything done late within a small time frame, a realistic time frame.
     
  18. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    So like this then? :rolleyes:

    [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8IkbCeZ9to"]Brave Sir Robin Ran Away - YouTube[/ame]
     
  19. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    That is different than how I was looking at it, but I should have stated that I agreed with your previous post and was trying to add on to it.

    I was looking at the one-inch punch as "learning to strike from where the hands are so as not to telegraph" rather than "winding up before punching and thus telegraphing my intentions".

    If my hands are down at my sides, learn to punch from there directly. If my hands are 1 inch from the opponent's chest, learn to punch directly from there. If my hands are in my boxing guard, learn to punch directly from there.

    By starting with the end of the punch or short distance from target, work backwards to eliminate movements that telegraph the punch.

    After a while, instead of learning to wind up before each punch, my hands and body just align and the punch happens, so there isn't any telegraphing movements associated with setting up the punch.

    The video of striking late with Ali you posted falls under this. Ali's hand is close to the target and Ali was able to punch directly from there without any wind up or telegraphed movement. He aligned his body already to strike while he was evading the opponent's attacks.

    P.S. There is some controversy about if that punch was truly a knockout, but regardless, the mechanics are there.
     
  20. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    How do you know that your "self-defense" skill can be used to knock/take down your serious attacking opponents if needed without a proper testing to knowing your success/failure ratio?

    If you have

    - taken down 100 guys in the past, you will know the chance that you may take down your 101 opponent is high.
    - been knocked down by 100 guys in the past, you will know the chance that you may be knocked down by your 101 opponent is high.

    The past data can project the future outcome. That's why the "testing" result is important.
     

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