A short punch is traditional, where does the force come from there? It doesn't twist. The force comes from the feet and the buttocks really. I find real power punches in the Katas seem to a lot of the time end up in the short punch position. I think it's a more powerful punch personally and a lot more akin to boxing especially when delivered to the body. I think part of the reason for practising long punches with twists is the same old story with Karate - training methods. Master this and the short punch becomes easy. And the hook punch. Funny how it works.
I guess I left one more thing out about the force of a traditional karate punch - the speed and power are not dependent on the strength of the arm - the body weight following through using the hips generates more force then the arm alone could.
what a load of *bleep* - boxing punches and traditional punches are the same thing - miyagi chojun even said this! the only difference is when they are practiced in traditional kihon, but this is not fighting, or sparring, and is not supposed to be interpreted as such - it is just there to teach muscle memory and teach the student about biomechanics and kinetics - god help anyone who punches like there kihon in a fight!
I found a good description here http://www.defend.net/deluxeforums/showthread.php?t=8058 I have been learning this method recently, you can get good power without expending to much energy.
I'm not Shotokan to be honest, but being a former boxer who now trains in karate (Kyokushin), I can honestly say the straight punches my sempai is teaching me now is no different from the ones I learned from my old boxing coach. If your instructor's trying to correct your punching, there's probably two reasons for it. 1) He sees some flaws you have and are trying to rectify it, and/or 2) He is trying to get you to use the techniques you're learning in Shotokan. My advice is, while in class punch the way he's training you but then at home train how you want.
Good post, but I would slightly disagree with your comparison of karate and boxing punches. Take the boxer's right cross verse the karate reverse punch... 1. The boxer's rear heel is lifted off the ground during the punch to allow for more rotation. 2. The karateka's rear heel is kept mostly flat to the ground to provide for more power from the ground. Now what I describe is just the BASICS, there are plenty of times when a karateka might lift the rear heel with a reverse punch and there are times when a boxer might have his rear heel planted during a cross. So in essence they aren't that different in application as koto_ryu noted what he was taught. ------------------ In regards to chambering punches... some believe that a chambered punch will allow for more penetratin power than punching from a hands up guard position... that may be true but of course a chambered hand means your hands are not up in front of you guarding you... as noted a lot of people that get used to punching from the chamber usually end up leaving their head open to some punishment in sparring. They soon learn to keep their hands up and in front of them. Okay I have said nothing new here. In regards to when you might use a chambered punch in stand-up combat (so I'm not talking about a grounded foe, I am talking about against a standing foe)... there is a technique or should I call it a concept of the "Chinese hidden fist." It basically means to turn your body side on to the opponent so that they cannot see your fist, so they cannot see your punch coming. From the side on position, one only has to rotate with the punch and strike through the target from fairly close range. This can be a very powerful punch, it is NOT pulled like point tournament but the punch drives through the target, fact your whole body drives through the target (so even if they move away they get nailed). Example of use: Your hands and arms are occupied close in 1. headbutt lightly (close range) 2. free left arm, left hammer fist the opponent's left bicep (right above the elbow on the top of the arm). As you hammer fist (this is not a slap but a strike with hammerfist or the edge of the hand) drop down (this is very important so that you get lots of power) and rotate your body with the strike and pull your right hand into chamber. End up with your left shoulder towards their chest. 3. The right hand should be hard for them to see (opposed to if you had it in a guard where they could see it). Rotate back with the reverse punch. Strike through the head of the opponent. 4. From there you can use your right hand to clinch around the right side of their neck and bring their head forward into your knee strikes and slam their face into the pavement. This is one basic application of the hidden fist. It is not a very subtle example.
If you're throwing that reverse punch from Zenkutsu-Dachi, then yes the heel should be flat. But when we're in Kumite-Dachi, my Kyokushin classmates and I raise the heel slightly to get more torque into the strike. As you can tell by my signature below, the principles are what's more important than the actual techniques themselves. If you use the technique but don't understand what's behind it, then you will never be as skilled as someone who understands the principles and knows how to apply them. The former might be the case of the OP.
Hi All, I get really confused when I hear people talk about 'the right way to punch' it's as if there was only one type of punch. There are lots of right ways to punch and lots of different punches - it depends on various factors - I might want to go through a target or I might want my 'energy' to go through, or I might want to affect my opponents balance or I might want to feint to get a reaction or I might want .... And that's without considering all the different angles a punch can be thrown from and the MANY different hand formations and whether or not you should fully extend the elbow (not even going to mention hyper-extending the shoulder joint to get a couple of extra inches of rage - WHOOPS, just did...) and so on... It's horses for courses - you should practice as many different types of punch as a) you can do reasonably well. b) you have time to practice. c) your instructor tells you to. All the best. Robert.
I train in both karate and boxing. Its not even close. My boxing jab is a million times more powerful than my karate straight. That should be more than enough proof. When I go train on the heavy bag, one of my left jabs fold the bag and send it flying. The most I get from karate punches is a slight slapping noise and risk of injury. Sure, karate punches can hurt a guy, but its nowere near as useful or as powerful as boxing punches.
Hi, I wonder, what style of Karate do you do? I teach a jab (I think it's the first punch I teach beginners) and I think you would call it a 'boxing jab' but I call it a 'karate jutsu jab'... Now if you are talking about comparing a jab with the traditional karate reverse punch then I'd say it TOTALLY depends on who is doing the punching. My reverse punch SUCKS - but I have been HIT by a reverse punch that makes you want to fold up and cry - anyone else who has been hit by Peter Constandine will know what I mean All the best. Robert.
emporor cesar: if this is the case then you are training completely incorectly in your karate - a punch is a punch is a punch... the body mechanics are the same no matter what you call it - why do you change the way you punch in boxing and karate? i do not understand this - do you just choose to punch poorly in karate? if so why? if not, what are you doing differently to come to the result you have? what is it that you think changes?
Alright, let me explain myself a little better. When training in boxing, the punches and techniques they tought me were slightly different from what i learned in karate. For example: Knuckle landing: In boxing, I was told to always keep my wrist straight, no matter what, and to land with my pinky, ring and middle knuckle. In karate, They tell me to have my wrist bent slightly and land with my index and middle knuckles. Maximize power: In boxing, they forced me to learn how to use my legs, hips and arms in one single motion to maximum power- they also constantly tell me to follow through for even more damage. This is also done in karate So the difference here is really the way you land the punches. I can feel this straight line of power going from my body and shoulder down to my arm and into my ring knuckle - plus the fact that you can land this punch high/low is another huge difference. When I try to punch something with the karate punch, most of the power is lost and instead of getting a huge load of weight and preasure behind your punches, its just mostly about speed and snap. Its nowere near as effective. I suprise many people when they see a featherweight send a heavy bag flying with a simple left jab (yes, I am right handed). I can get nowere near as much power with a karate punch. Also, things like shovel hooking are impossible to do with karate punches. The advantage of karate, though, is the different types of hand strikes they have- knife hand, ridge hand, hammer, palm etc are all extremely useful and are never used in boxing. Edit: One last thing... An example of what I mean by "Line of power": I can do a little video demonstration later but for now I will explain with words. I stand in front of my heavy bag. I grab it and push it hard so it starts swinging straight back and forth in front of me. When the heavy bag is swinging back down at me at high speeds, I can use my boxers jab to create a "train wreck" strike and send the bag flying back from were it came. Since my punch is in a straight line of power, even a heavy bag flying down towards me with all its weight cant stop my punch. If I try to do the same with a karate punch, I can kiss my wrist goodbye.
Perhaps of interest to this thread: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/08/060814-fight-science.html Boxer's punch was the most powerful punch. Muay Thai knee was the most powerful over all.
The landing really isn't the difference, it's more the application IMO. I boxed for much longer than I have done karate, but the same elements that my Kyokushin sempai is teaching me for punching is the exact same I learned in the boxing gym. The boxing jab is the same as the seiken ago tsuki. The difference is probably due to the fact that all boxers do is punch, where in karate you have to concentrate on a few other areas. Boxers specialize in punching; to karateka, it's just one of several tools. One of my sempais is 165 pounds and hits harder than any person I've ever sparred or fought against in boxing, and his martial arts background is all Kyokushin and Shorin-Ryu. So it's not necessarily the training (as I have sparred some powder-puff punchers who have trained in boxing), so much as how well you learn and apply the mechanics.
One question I have though: did they make sure all the martial artists were of a comparable weight? A middleweight's punch is not going to hit as hard as a light-heavy or heavyweight's punch. Doesn't surprise me though.
lol. I laughed [with fear] when I heard the detail they described of the MT knee. I can see a random discussion between myself and a MT'er. Being a boxer myself, I'd probably harp on the MT's fabled "arm punch" and how I'd knock him out with a good straight right from my chin to his face. Having just read what the results of the test were, if he challenged me to a match, I would **** my pants. 35 mph car crash? If that's true... damn.
the reasons for the different alignments of the fist are due to the fact that a boxer wears big gloves - why would you choose to punch with the weaker knuckles if you are going bare fisted? and in karate the fist should be aligned with the forearm - not slightly bent
Not sure who's getting taught in boxing to punch with the smallest finger and then move up towards the index finger. That makes little sense. The bones are not only smaller but weaker. There are also some argueable question about alignment with the wrist. At any rate... with beginning boxers we teach them to punch with the two largest knuckles... they are the strongest and most supported. Sure there is some carryover to the other knuckles... but you don't want to focus on punching with your pinky knuckle.
